Mission Accomplished!

[durmij]

Oh boy, we got a lot to chew through here. Forgive me if this reaches Partisan length

The brief first. To Rozalia, I'm actually willing to extend you the benefit of the doubt. Phoenix was basically inactive to the point of nonexistence, at least from our outside FA perspective, and our help was not giving much by way of results. If you can scrape the leftover bits of Pheonix into a functioning alliance, or even a half functioning satellite, more power to you. Literally zero hard feelings over this treaty and it's terms (the only one that gives me pause is 4, the others are actually pretty hilarious). I wish you and Phoenix luck in your new relationship.

To Kastor. Oh boy, were do we start. If you genuinely believe that an ally coming to the aid of an ally is an example of meat shielding than you lack the basic understanding of this game required to conduct FA. That's fact. Meatshielding would be if we asked them to fight a war we weren't fighting, or to fight a stronger opponent than we were. That fact that you do not understand treaties on a global scale or how world wars happen is pretty evident. I understand the merits of the paperless route and even agree with a lot of the core arguments, but acting like treaties are bondage chains is a little over the top.

As for not helping them; there is an old saying. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him militarize. We gave Phoenix help, as they have stated, but it didn't take. If you have more spare time then please, by all means, go for it. But don't try and spin this and say that Phoenix's internal problems are our fault.

Finally, the Strong Arm claim. I must admit, this one rustled my jimmies a little. It's false, patently provably false. Lets start with the Storm Division. You claim we attacked them for honouring a treaty. If you read that whole thread, you would have seen the posts about how they had no obligation to attack NAC and cleverly told Alpha that they planned to betray us. But enough about us, lets talk about you.

I have a log from you from after this post went up, claiming you wanted to put a Viceroy in charge of Phoenix. You flat out admitted to wanting to seize an alliance whole and you have the !@#$ gall to call us strong armers. Chiggity check yourself before you riggity rek yourself son.

TL;DR Congratulations Roz Wei and Phoenix, condolences anyone who has to deal with Kastor.

Edit: Spelling

Edited June 25, 2016 by durmij

[Callisto]

No, Rose signed them to counter Syndisphere. Pubstomper has said this multiple times on the radio show. And when did Rose get dogpiled on? In the 168 day war, when you DECLARED an OFFENSIVE war? When all yor allies COUNTERED in on their treaties?

 

How about when you were the first one to peace out this war? How about when you called Storm Divsion traitors and dropped them mid war because they honored a treaty with the opposite side? What about when you guys were going to declare on Cobalt(what, six times?)?

 

Rose has been a horrid alliance since Kurdanak stepped down. Even then he was a dick. Rose has a of strong arming smaller alliances.

Here's another thing, Storm Division held a MDP, a MDP with BoC, not a MDoAP with BoC, a MDP! And did BoC have war declared on them by NAC? I don't believe so, in fact, I believe it was BoC who declared on NAC, meaning Storm Division had no treaty to honor.

 

Storm Divison had no obligation to help out BoC at all, and should have just sat their asses out.

 

And I'm sure we all remember Storm Division's conversation with Steve, where Storm Division said they were going to betray Rose.

 

So yes, Storm Division is 100% traitors, I would like to see you explain to me, exactly how Storm Division did not betray Rose. Please show me, I would love to be proven wrong here.

Edited June 25, 2016 by HouseofJacks

[Young]

Storn division did do a bad thing by deflation on NAC, they said they were going to betray rose which ain't cool, I think traitors is a viable thing to call them, (I quite like SD)

Never the less, there is no need to bad mouth rose, live and let live boys

[Dr Rush]

Here's another thing, Storm Division held a MDP, a MDP with BoC, not a MDoAP with BoC, a MDP! And did BoC have war declared on them by NAC? I don't believe so, in fact, I believe it was BoC who declared on NAC, meaning Storm Division had no treaty to honor.

 

Storm Divison had no obligation to help out BoC at all, and should have just sat their asses out.

 

And I'm sure we all remember Storm Division's conversation with Steve, where Storm Division said they were going to betray Rose.

 

So yes, Storm Division is 100% traitors, I would like to see you explain to me, exactly how Storm Division did not betray Rose. Please show me, I would love to be proven wrong here.

 

Heres some FA training to go with all the war training your getting. MDPs & MDoAP are identical in every meaningful respect. All alliances already have an unspoken oDAP with every other alliance. As such an MDP has optional aggression already implied.  

[Callisto]

Heres some FA training to go with all the war training your getting. MDPs & MDoAP are identical in every meaningful respect. All alliances already have an unspoken oDAP with every other alliance. As such an MDP has optional aggression already implied.

 

MDP =/= MDoAP

I don't care how much "assumed" oDAP clauses there should be, if you wanted a oA clause, then you should have signed a flipping MDoAP.

 

If you intentionally sign a MDP with someone, it's usually because you on purpose don't want a oA clause, and don't want to get involved in oA chains. Because if they are as similar as you are claiming them to be, then why isn't every single MDP a MDoAP, if they're so similar?

Edited June 25, 2016 by HouseofJacks

[Edward I]

Heres some FA training to go with all the war training your getting. MDPs & MDoAP are identical in every meaningful respect. All alliances already have an unspoken oDAP with every other alliance. As such an MDP has optional aggression already implied.  

It really is a shame that so many people seem to think they need treaty clauses to generate CB's. As if just saying outright that you're protecting your interests or helping allies protect theirs isn't enough.

[Odin]

It really is a shame that so many people seem to think they need treaty clauses to generate CB's. As if just saying outright that you're protecting your interests or helping allies protect theirs isn't enough.

 

Well spoken, paperless is the best.

 

[Sketchy]

No, Rose signed them to counter Syndisphere. Pubstomper has said this multiple times on the radio show. And when did Rose get dogpiled on? In the 168 day war, when you DECLARED an OFFENSIVE war? When all yor allies COUNTERED in on their treaties?

 

How about when you were the first one to peace out this war? How about when you called Storm Divsion traitors and dropped them mid war because they honored a treaty with the opposite side? What about when you guys were going to declare on Cobalt(what, six times?)?

 

Rose has been a horrid alliance since Kurdanak stepped down. Even then he was a dick. Rose has a of strong arming smaller alliances.

It seems like you have forgotten, so I'll remind you. BOTH Alliances need to sign a treaty for it to be valid. If Phoenix didn't like the arrangement, they shouldn't have signed the treaty. Also, what is so wrong with wanting an ally, to help counter? It's common strategy employed by both sphere, the only difference is Phoenix by their own admission were to lazy, incompetent, and afraid to partake despite signing a treaty agreeing to do so.

 

As for storm division, either you didn't even read that thread, or you are intentionally feigning ignorance in order to push yet another false narrative.

 

SD joined an offensive war alongside BoC against an ally on our side of the sphere. SD had no reason to join the war, they were not obligated to do so, and were asked to stop. Additionally, the leaked conversation of them admitting they intended to betray rose, only reinforced that betrayal. 

 

Since everyone else has read that thread and seems to understand the situation, I'm guessing you read it, then decided to twist reality to suit your narrative.

[Caillou]

Wp kastor, keeping your FA game strong I see.

[Kastor]

Oh boy, we got a lot to chew through here. Forgive me if this reaches Partisan length

The brief first. To Rozalia, I'm actually willing to extend you the benefit of the doubt. Phoenix was basically inactive to the point of nonexistence, at least from our outside FA perspective, and our help was not giving much by way of results. If you can scrape the leftover bits of Pheonix into a functioning alliance, or even a half functioning satellite, more power to you. Literally zero hard feelings over this treaty and it's terms (the only one that gives me pause is 4, the others are actually pretty hilarious). I wish you and Phoenix luck in your new relationship.

To Kastor. Oh boy, were do we start. If you genuinely believe that an ally coming to the aid of an ally is an example of meat shielding than you lack the basic understanding of this game required to conduct FA. That's fact. Meatshielding would be if we asked them to fight a war we weren't fighting, or to fight a stronger opponent than we were. That fact that you do not understand treaties on a global scale or how world wars happen is pretty evident. I understand the merits of the paperless route and even agree with a lot of the core arguments, but acting like treaties are bondage chains is a little over the top.

As for not helping them; there is an old saying. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him militarize. We gave Phoenix help, as they have stated, but it didn't take. If you have more spare time then please, by all means, go for it. But don't try and spin this and say that Phoenix's internal problems are our fault.

Finally, the Strong Arm claim. I must admit, this one rustled my jimmies a little. It's false, patently provably false. Lets start with the Storm Division. You claim we attacked them for honouring a treaty. If you read that whole thread, you would have seen the posts about how they had no obligation to attack NAC and cleverly told Alpha that they planned to betray us. But enough about us, lets talk about you.

I have a log from you from after this post went up, claiming you wanted to put a Viceroy in charge of Phoenix. You flat out admitted to wanting to seize an alliance whole and you have the !@#$ gall to call us strong armers. Chiggity check yourself before you riggity rek yourself son.

TL;DR Congratulations Roz Wei and Phoenix, condolences anyone who has to deal with Kastor.

Edit: Spelling

  

Here's another thing, Storm Division held a MDP, a MDP with BoC, not a MDoAP with BoC, a MDP! And did BoC have war declared on them by NAC? I don't believe so, in fact, I believe it was BoC who declared on NAC, meaning Storm Division had no treaty to honor.

Storm Divison had no obligation to help out BoC at all, and should have just sat their asses out.

And I'm sure we all remember Storm Division's conversation with Steve, where Storm Division said they were going to betray Rose.

So yes, Storm Division is 100% traitors, I would like to see you explain to me, exactly how Storm Division did not betray Rose. Please show me, I would love to be proven wrong here.

  

It seems like you have forgotten, so I'll remind you. BOTH Alliances need to sign a treaty for it to be valid. If Phoenix didn't like the arrangement, they shouldn't have signed the treaty. Also, what is so wrong with wanting an ally, to help counter? It's common strategy employed by both sphere, the only difference is Phoenix by their own admission were to lazy, incompetent, and afraid to partake despite signing a treaty agreeing to do so.

 

As for storm division, either you didn't even read that thread, or you are intentionally feigning ignorance in order to push yet another false narrative.

 

SD joined an offensive war alongside BoC against an ally on our side of the sphere. SD had no reason to join the war, they were not obligated to do so, and were asked to stop. Additionally, the leaked conversation of them admitting they intended to betray rose, only reinforced that betrayal. 

 

Since everyone else has read that thread and seems to understand the situation, I'm guessing you read it, then decided to twist reality to suit your narrative.

lol @ Rose Propaganda

 

I'm done here. We both know what the facts are, and history has a way of repeating itself. And the viceroy thing was obviously a joke if you're talking about logs from #Pantheon. I wish Rose the best of luck going forward.

[tenk]

Ayy lmao

[Sketchy]

    

lol @ Rose Propaganda

 

I'm done here. We both know what the facts are, and history has a way of repeating itself. And the viceroy thing was obviously a joke if you're talking about logs from #Pantheon. I wish Rose the best of luck going forward.

 

lol @ damage control

 

Says "I'm done here" Then follows it up with:

 

> A hollow "you know the real truth" remark to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you.

> One last reply towards something said so you can "Have the last word" while still attempting to end the discussion.

> A "I wish you well" comment in an attempt to save face despite just literally just calling Rose a bunch of "evil strong-arming overlords".

> Not responding to any of the points made, due to the realization they are true and you can't argue your way out of them.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Sketchy

[greatkitteh]

Meh, The Storm Division was absolute shit in the war and didn't really matter anyways. I mean they leaked their intentions twice and would have been destroyed if it was only NAC and The Storm Division in an one on one.

[Mayor]

    

lol @ Rose Propaganda

 

I'm done here. We both know what the facts are, and history has a way of repeating itself. And the viceroy thing was obviously a joke if you're talking about logs from #Pantheon. I wish Rose the best of luck going forward.

 

lol @ damage control

 

Says "I'm done here" Then follows it up with:

 

> A hollow "you know the real truth" remark to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you.

> One last reply towards something said so you can "Have the last word" while still attempting to end the discussion.

> A "I wish you well" comment in an attempt to save face despite just literally just calling Rose a bunch of "evil strong-arming overlords".

> Not responding to any of the points made, due to the realization they are true and you can't argue your way out of them.

 

It is ridiculous that you even believe that viceroy thing was considered; it was a joke the entire time by Kastor. The peace terms were pretty much decided and Kastor was nominating people to be a viceroy, mostly inactive people, and it was never actually serious. There is no discussion to be had unless it is a discussion about how gullible people are that they believe whatever Kastor says.

 

I may not hate Rose as much as the rest of Orbis but unlike you guys I am optimistic about Phoenix and Roz Wei in the future. You don't believe anything Kastor says about Rose or basically anything else, but Oh? What is that? Viceroys?! That must be true! . . . It is honestly sad that you believed it so easily. "I have a log from you from after this post went up, claiming you wanted to put a Viceroy in charge of Phoenix. You flat out admitted to wanting to seize an alliance whole and you have the !@#$ gall to call us strong armers." or maybe is it that you didn't believe it but wanted to somehow enrich your pro-Rose narrative? "Since everyone else has read that thread and seems to understand the situation, I'm guessing you read it, then decided to twist reality to suit your narrative."

 

Maybe next time if you want to confirm some sort of strange rumor then you should ask Rozalia. Kastor although a great guy is very sarcastic; I thought this would be obvious by now. Ironically you also say this: "A hollow "you know the real truth" remark to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you."

Then say this: "Not responding to any of the points made, due to the realization they are true and you can't argue your way out of them."

Oh? So everything we said were lies and what you said is obviously true? Is that to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you.

 

I think I'll throw this in here: I wish Rose the best of luck going forward.

[Young]

Right, I've tried being nonchalant about this whole thing but here we go,

 

Rose has no business saying how shit Phoenix is, they know it after the asss kicking RW just handed them, if you are not upset about losing Phoenix as an ally then why are you here arguing it, guys I really like rose, you are normally so chill, be chill now bro's.

 

Roz Wei and freinds, stop accusing rise of strong arming other alliances. Speaking from expierence rose have been some of the most chilled out guys I have ever met, never strong armed me in Phoenix, not strong armed me in Valkyrie, again, Roz Wei have always been chill when I've spoken to them, so as you always have been chill.

 

 

Everyone chill the fu.ck out I swear to god, no point arguing like school kids

[Sketchy]

It is ridiculous that you even believe that viceroy thing was considered; it was a joke the entire time by Kastor. The peace terms were pretty much decided and Kastor was nominating people to be a viceroy, mostly inactive people, and it was never actually serious. There is no discussion to be had unless it is a discussion about how gullible people are that they believe whatever Kastor says.

 

I may not hate Rose as much as the rest of Orbis but unlike you guys I am optimistic about Phoenix and Roz Wei in the future. You don't believe anything Kastor says about Rose or basically anything else, but Oh? What is that? Viceroys?! That must be true! . . . It is honestly sad that you believed it so easily. "I have a log from you from after this post went up, claiming you wanted to put a Viceroy in charge of Phoenix. You flat out admitted to wanting to seize an alliance whole and you have the !@#$ gall to call us strong armers." or maybe is it that you didn't believe it but wanted to somehow enrich your pro-Rose narrative? "Since everyone else has read that thread and seems to understand the situation, I'm guessing you read it, then decided to twist reality to suit your narrative."

 

Maybe next time if you want to confirm some sort of strange rumor then you should ask Rozalia. Kastor although a great guy is very sarcastic; I thought this would be obvious by now. Ironically you also say this: "A hollow "you know the real truth" remark to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you."

Then say this: "Not responding to any of the points made, due to the realization they are true and you can't argue your way out of them."

Oh? So everything we said were lies and what you said is obviously true? Is that to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you.

 

I think I'll throw this in here: I wish Rose the best of luck going forward.

 

Since I never responded to the whole "viceroy" thing or paid it any attention, I'm not sure why you are using it to argue against me instead of the person who originally posted it. Either you didn't notice, you see all rose posters as a collective incapable of independent thought, or you are being intentionally disingenuous. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the first one.

 

Since most of your post is in response to another person, I'm going to further elaborate on my points.

 

You bolded "> One last reply towards something said so you can "Have the last word" while still attempting to end the discussion." which I can only assume (since you never elaborated yourself) this was an attempt by you to say I was attempting to do the same. Except I wasn't ending the discussion, saying I was done and then leaving whilst taking one last jab.

 

"Oh? So everything we said were lies and what you said is obviously true? Is that to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you."

 

Considering Rose has provided a considerable amount of counter arguments to every point Kastor has made, and Kastor has just regurgitated the same "Rose strong arms small alliances and uses them as meatshields" line without providing any proof besides a reference to Storm Division, which was easily disproved since all the relevant information behind that was provided in the thread it was discussed in. SD Betrayed rose, joined a war on the opposite side despite having no actual obligation to do so.

[Sketchy]

if you are not upset about losing Phoenix as an ally then why are you here arguing it, guys I really like rose, you are normally so chill, be chill now bro's.

 

So you're still salty that you're losing a meatshield?

 

Kastor made that comment, things escalated. 

 

Most of us were indifferent to the announcement, since Phoenix proved to be an unreliable ally, we expressed that.

[durmij]

"It's a joke" is the response of a coward who can't own his words. But lets give Kastor the benefit of the doubt and assume he just thinks everyone knows when he's joking through a medium that can't convey tone well.

Why are you joking about seizing more control over an alliance that you are already taking a fair amount of sovereignty from? If you're going to be the Head of FA for a top 15 alliance, especially one that does weird new things like (seemingly) force vassalizing other AA's, maybe you should choose your words carefully instead of just spouting of dumb shit to any party involved.

This thread is still going because there is still baseless shit being flung Rose's way by Kastor and Co. I have zero problem with the treaty, with Rozalia, with Roz Wei or with Phoenix Gov, new or old. So for the second time...

Congratulations Roz Wei and Phoenix, condolences to those of us who have to deal with Kastor.

[Caillou]

Out of respect for Young and the individuals from Phoenix expressing an interest in letting this go, we will let it go. I appreciate Rozalia and his efforts of mediating things, and I do hope Phoenix is able to find everything they are looking for.

[naTia]

All is fair in love and war.

[Mayor]

Since I never responded to the whole "viceroy" thing or paid it any attention, I'm not sure why you are using it to argue against me instead of the person who originally posted it. Either you didn't notice, you see all rose posters as a collective incapable of independent thought, or you are being intentionally disingenuous. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the first one.

 

Since most of your post is in response to another person, I'm going to further elaborate on my points.

 

You bolded "> One last reply towards something said so you can "Have the last word" while still attempting to end the discussion." which I can only assume (since you never elaborated yourself) this was an attempt by you to say I was attempting to do the same. Except I wasn't ending the discussion, saying I was done and then leaving whilst taking one last jab.

 

"Oh? So everything we said were lies and what you said is obviously true? Is that to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you."

 

Considering Rose has provided a considerable amount of counter arguments to every point Kastor has made, and Kastor has just regurgitated the same "Rose strong arms small alliances and uses them as meatshields" line without providing any proof besides a reference to Storm Division, which was easily disproved since all the relevant information behind that was provided in the thread it was discussed in. SD Betrayed rose, joined a war on the opposite side despite having no actual obligation to do so.

 

I was following your reply to Kastor who was replying to three people.

 

[1] lol @ Rose Propaganda

 

I'm done here. [2] We both know what the facts are, and history has a way of repeating itself. [3] And the viceroy thing was obviously a joke if you're talking about logs from #Pantheon. [4] I wish Rose the best of luck going forward.

 

lol @ damage control

 

Says "I'm done here" Then follows it up with:

 

> A hollow "you know the real truth" remark to make it sound like we are lying, despite plenty of evidence posted to the contrary and plenty of unproven accusations slung at us by you.

> One last reply towards something said so you can "Have the last word" while still attempting to end the discussion.

> A "I wish you well" comment in an attempt to save face despite just literally just calling Rose a bunch of "evil strong-arming overlords".

 

 

I assumed through the order of your post that you were referring to the Viceroy claim and were saying that the issue needed to still be addressed, because of the last point: "> Not responding to any of the points made, due to the realization they are true and you can't argue your way out of them."

 

I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that they were not true and no one in Roz Wei would have ever agreed to such a thing. Kastor quoted all of you and instead of a huge quote I just quoted you and copied parts of the previous posts from durmij.

[tenk]

[George Clooney]

 

More alliances should take this advice.  Actually more people should take this advice.

 

Good luck to Rose going forward.

[Beowulf the Second]

>t$ shows up

>sees shtposts ending

>MOMMM!!1 PULL THE PLUG

>calls in Alpha/t$ argument airstrike

[Jodo]

>t$ shows up

>sees shtposts ending

>MOMMM!!1 PULL THE PLUG

>calls in Alpha/t$ argument airstrike

Shitposts never end.