The Knights Radiant Declaration of War

[Eumirbago]

Yes, you were the victim when you supported Mensa's unprovoked attacks on Vanguard...twice.  You were the victim when you attacked Alpha and of course you were the victim when you attacked NPO and had your allies burn 3 allies to start yet another aggressive war.

 

No

[Prefonteen]

Yes, you were the victim when you supported Mensa's unprovoked attacks on Vanguard...twice.  You were the victim when you attacked Alpha and of course you were the victim when you attacked NPO and had your allies burn 3 allies to start yet another aggressive war.

 

No.

[Charles Bolivar]

Only alpha and friends can be victims apparently. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

[Lordship]

Yes, you were the victim when you supported Mensa's unprovoked attacks on Vanguard...twice.  You were the victim when you attacked Alpha and of course you were the victim when you attacked NPO and had your allies burn 3 allies to start yet another aggressive war.

 

No.

[Tiber]

I look forward to seeing NPO and Polaris honoring all of their treaties down to the exact word, regardless of circumstance, for the rest of their time in Orbis.

[Roy Mustang]

Yes, you were the victim when you supported Mensa's unprovoked attacks on Vanguard...twice.  You were the victim when you attacked Alpha and of course you were the victim when you attacked NPO and had your allies burn 3 allies to start yet another aggressive war.

 

No.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Carmen Sandiego

[Charles Bolivar]

I look forward to seeing NPO and Polaris honoring all of their treaties down to the exact word, regardless of circumstance, for the rest of their time in Orbis.

 

I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[Charles Bolivar]

 

Again, this was the response you guys had: I merely responded to Azaghul not even by name and IC came into defend him, meaning it was the highest position in your alliance defending it and insulting me. It was never cleared up until Azaghul was actually called out and even then he was only actually called out when I made a reference to it in passing and IC challenged me on it.

 

 

 

My name is Roq and I can't handle being insulted or having people not like me.

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Charles the Tyrant

[Azaghul]

Actually it is even simpler than that champ.  When you sign a treaty, you sign that treaty as it reads and as it stands.  If you want exclusions and rankings you should really make that clear, if you don't an alliance is entitled to take the treaty at face value.  The treaty standard is pretty simple and most alliances follow very simple templates.  It is not a case for e-lawyering or tampering, nor is it a piece of toilet paper.  In case this situation arises again I will try to make it simple for you.

 

The key clause in every treaty is in relation to defense.  If I am attacked I expect that the people who have previously, and under no obligation or duress, agreed to defend me actually do that.  I don't expect them to suggest that due to a desire to kill someone else that our treaty should be voided.  I don't expect them to suggest that some other treaty now takes precedence over the one I hold.  The length of time I have held it is not a validation or invalidation of the treaty.  If you don't like the obligations of a treaty and all that entails, don't sign it.  Once you have you have made a commitment.

 

There are times when there are clearly conflicts, such as the situation BK placed Polaris in.  At these times it is best to dissolve the treaty before moving forwards, but it is also clear that neither BK or Polaris had actually been attacked when the treaty was cancelled.  If we had been attacked then I would have rightfully expected BK to honour their commitment.  I may not have expected them to hit an old and direct ally of theirs but I would expect them to do more than laugh at me, tell me to !@#$ off and leave me to it.  I didn't force them to make the commitment, it was a mutual agreement.  When you fail to honour your treaty because you think it is too hard you truly show what a worthless, untrustworthy pile of shit your alliance is.  Allies assisting each other by helping protect them from aggressive actions pre DOW is acceptable, lying to your treaty partner and selling them off for 30 pieces of silver, maybe not so much.  Posting horse shit comments like yours show a clear mindset, it is not one of honour or respect.

 

So we have today been shown the clear lines on Orbis, newcomer alliances who reached out across the divide and signed treaties in good faith with new partners have pretty much been shown that there is no possible future for friendships across the divide.  That is fine, you complain about us huddling together, then in one fell swoop prove exactly why we were right to in the first place.  If you thought we would remain an uncohesive rabble forever and you could have your way continually, pay us some scant regard by signing a few random treaties here and there, but today you have show that your heart doesnt lie in the treaties you sign but rather in the side you perceive you belong to.  I understand and I am not at all critical of you for adopting that position, but please stop pretending that I therefore have any alternatives than the people I know.

 

 I am not at all sure what value you place on your agreements any longer.  My treaty is my word and even at the risk of total and utter defeat and destruction I will honour it, you seem to place a different value on your word.  Toeach their own, I understand your position, I trust you will understand mine.

It's really pretty simple:

 

Letter of the treaty: The mutual defense part of our NPO treaty is in conflict with the non-aggression clauses of our treaties with Syndicate and Black Knights.

 

Spirit of the treaty: One side of this war is composed of NPO, the other side is composed of all of our other allies.  It makes sense for us to join the side that has all of our other allies.

 

No where in this are we not defending NPO because it would be "too hard".

Edited June 15, 2016 by Azaghul

[Ezg]

Did you just quote a 12 day nation who is clearly new to the game and then tell him how shit of an alliance TKR is? Pretty disrespectful considering we have had nothing but good relations with you guys.

 

 

"If you want exclusions and rankings you should really make that clear, if you don't an alliance is entitled to take the treaty at face value."

- https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11274-imperial-decree-of-the-new-pacific-order-the-knights-radiant-mdoap/Take it at face value, where does it say we have to share that information with them?

 

 

Article 1 says mutual defense. Both signatories agree to defend each other in the event one is subject to an aggressive attack. 

NPO was attacked by ts/bk in an aggressive attack. According to the treaty you should defend them.

 

Idk why you keep trying to say its ok to not defend npo. You didnt fufill the obligations of your treaty because doing so would end your sphere. So cancel the treaty and stop trying to morally justify yourself. People are gonna bash you cause you did betrayed them. Just own up to it and move on. Attacking ve puts your sphere in a good spot in this war. It was a great tactical decision, but a terrible pr one. Oh well. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Tiber]

 I am not at all sure what value you place on your agreements any longer.  My treaty is my word and even at the risk of total and utter defeat and destruction I will honour it, you seem to place a different value on your word.  Toeach their own, I understand your position, I trust you will understand mine.

 

If a treaty is that binding to you, please show us how much better you are than us, and defend us against Sparta.

[Azaghul]

Article 1 says mutual defense. Both signatories agree to defend each other in the event one is subject to an aggressive attack. 

NPO was attacked by ts/bk in an aggressive attack. According to the treaty you should defend them.

 

Idk why you keep trying to say its ok to not defend npo. You didnt fufill the obligations of your treaty because doing so would end your sphere. So cancel the treaty and stop trying to morally justify yourself. People are gonna bash you cause you did betrayed them. Just own up to it and move on. Attacking ve puts your sphere in a good spot in this war. It was a great tactical decision, but a terrible pr one. Oh well. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

We didn't fufill the obligations of our treaty because that would entail not fulfilling the obligations of our other treaties.

 

This really isn't that complicated.

[Ezg]

If a treaty is that binding to you, please show us how much better you are than us, and defend us against Sparta.

Polaris cancelled on bk.

 

 

We didn't fufill the obligations of our treaty because that would entail not fulfilling the obligations of our other treaties.

 

This really isn't that complicated.

I agree with your point, but that doesn't mean you didn't gip your treaty partner.

Just because robin hood robs the rich and gives that money to the poor doesnt meant the rich are gonna be happy that their money is stolen.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Ezg

[Placentica]

Only alpha and friends can be victims apparently.

Where was this said? 

 

But when the most aggressive alliance in PnW tries to say it's the victim, that's going to make people laugh.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Placentica

[Yosodog]

Polaris cancelled on bk.

 

There's a 72 hour cool-down period which the treaty is still active and Sparta declared war within that period.

 

But we don't care. It's cool, Tiber was joking

[AlmightyGrub]

Would you not agree that that is in large part a self-fulfilling prophecy? We equally reached out across the 'divide' over the past months and instead saw a consolidation occur that to us, could be interpreted as nothing but the foundation of what would in the future be a rival coalition (if only by virtue of the tangled web of treaties between these alliances). One could argue that it is the treaties which caused the perceived threat which drove us to war. One could also argue the opposite and say that you did indeed huddle together out of fear for us going to war with you, and that therefore your claim is proven.

 

It's a chicken or egg situation: I'd argue that both may be correct. You may have huddled together in part out of fear for us. And we in turn felt threatened, which led us to take action.

 

One is not mutually exclusive to the other. I'm not sure if that however, is considered an inherently bad thing. Moreso a logical consequence/reaction.

 

For Polaris, not at all.  When we arrived I sent Aero out to make friends and seek all interested parties who might be willing to take a chance on Polaris.  BK was very quick to suggest we would be welcome to treaty them, their treaty was posted at exactly the same occasion as an Alpha MDoAP and an NPO ODoAP and well before the signing of the UPN MDoAP or NPO MDoAP.

 

I spoke to lots of people, I was pretty clear I was happy to give anything a try, at the end of the day we ended up where we did because that is what we were offered.  When t$ hit our new ally in Alpha we were a few weeks old and about the size of the Cook Islands in comparison to Australia.  We begrudgingly allowed Alpha to fight on solo, at their request, knowing full well there was nothing we could do about it. We still did not enter into a full MD treaty with the NPO until well after this time.

 

We didn't choose the sides as they stand, we just chose to treaty some alliances that were friendly towards us.  I didn't come here to consolidate power across multiple realms, I can here to have some fun and make some friends.  There is every opportunity for any alliance that wants to be friendly to us to be so.  The slate as far as I am concerned was clean, now there is fresh shit on it that will need to be sorted before moving forwards.

 

The door is and always will be open until it is clear that it needs to be closed.

[AlmightyGrub]

I look forward to seeing NPO and Polaris honoring all of their treaties down to the exact word, regardless of circumstance, for the rest of their time in Orbis.

 

Well my friend, I would encourage you to keep score and remind me if I ever fail.  I don't mind.

[AlmightyGrub]

There's a 72 hour cool-down period which the treaty is still active and Sparta declared war within that period.

 

But we don't care. It's cool, Tiber was joking

 

I think we can safely suggest that you would have to be at this stage

 

There is no hard feelings from me to you guys, I get it totally.  It is just time to move on.

[jimmyvbuck]

Well my friend, I would encourage you to keep score and remind me if I ever fail.  I don't mind.

 

 

There's a 72 hour cool-down period which the treaty is still active and Sparta declared war within that period.

 

But we don't care. It's cool, Tiber was joking

 

lol, I kid I kid

[Prefonteen]

For Polaris, not at all.  When we arrived I sent Aero out to make friends and seek all interested parties who might be willing to take a chance on Polaris.  BK was very quick to suggest we would be welcome to treaty them, their treaty was posted at exactly the same occasion as an Alpha MDoAP and an NPO ODoAP and well before the signing of the UPN MDoAP or NPO MDoAP.

 

I spoke to lots of people, I was pretty clear I was happy to give anything a try, at the end of the day we ended up where we did because that is what we were offered.  When t$ hit our new ally in Alpha we were a few weeks old and about the size of the Cook Islands in comparison to Australia.  We begrudgingly allowed Alpha to fight on solo, at their request, knowing full well there was nothing we could do about it. We still did not enter into a full MD treaty with the NPO until well after this time.

 

We didn't choose the sides as they stand, we just chose to treaty some alliances that were friendly towards us.  I didn't come here to consolidate power across multiple realms, I can here to have some fun and make some friends.  There is every opportunity for any alliance that wants to be friendly to us to be so.  The slate as far as I am concerned was clean, now there is fresh shit on it that will need to be sorted before moving forwards.

 

The door is and always will be open until it is clear that it needs to be closed.

 

Hmm my comment was more in reference to geopolitical movements. I do not mind Polaris- the few interactions we have had with you have been positive. And with all due respect: Polaris, by virtue of its size, was not on our minds when we decided to pull the trigger.

 

You unfortunately got caught in the crossfire, crude as that sounds.

 

As for shit on the slate: Unfortunate to hear, but not something I can at this point alter.

[AlmightyGrub]

Hmm my comment was more in reference to geopolitical movements. I do not mind Polaris- the few interactions we have had with you have been positive. And with all due respect: Polaris, by virtue of its size, was not on our minds when we decided to pull the trigger.

 

You unfortunately got caught in the crossfire, crude as that sounds.

 

As for shit on the slate: Unfortunate to hear, but not something I can at this point alter.

 

Well we are obviously at war, so there is obviously some issues to resolve somewhere

 

There is plenty of time, we are not going anywhere

[TellUrGrlThx]

Where was this said? 

 

But when the most aggressive alliance in PnW tries to say it's the victim, that's going to make people laugh.

 

No.

[Edward I]

1. You guys set yourselves up for this war, and BK made the most sense because of the way tiers play out.

 

2. Sooo many things wrong with this statement. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. We didn't ignore the treaty, considering the only communication your government has had with us over the past few days is their ridiculous OOC forum slandering, associating TKR with MK, and calling us shit allies.

 

3. Non-chaining doesn't apply here since you were directly hit

 

4. We aren't defending you because your government hasn't bothered talking to us and the people hitting you are our long time allies who we hold treaties with.

 

5. Pretty sure we know what they mean? Not sure if trolling or

 

6. Right. You want us to engage our allies. Real intelligent decision, that would be.

 

7. Declaring war on them would not only be incredibly stupid, it would be political suicide. Any offensive declaration of war by any TKR nation on their nations would be considered aggression. Who would we have to fall back on? NPO who slander our name and sign the entire other side yet expect us to be the best friends in the world.

 

1, 2, 3, 4. Whether we did or did not set ourselves up for this war doesn't change what the treaty said. Whether or not our government communicated with you (and I have no idea what communication was like) and what they said also don't change what the treaty said. If you can come up with a single reason for not defending NPO that is germane to the treaty I'll be all ears. TKR was still obliged to defend us because, as you've acknowledged, Article 3 wasn't activated. If you were dissatisfied with the way NPO was handling its relationship with TKR then you should have either tried talking to NPO or cancelled the treaty.

 

5, 6, 7. Flippant but not trolling. My point was that since the bloc is question is an MDoAP bloc (as opposed to MADP) and since non-aggression pacts pledge non-aggression, not selective nullification of other treaties, TKR had no other obligations that conflicted or superseded its treaty with NPO. We wanted you to come to NPO's defense regardless of who attacked NPO since that's what you promised to do. You could have defended us without violating any NAP's since it would have been defense - not aggression. Obviously it would have been a terrible move, but such are the consequences of being either dumb enough or unscrupulous enough to assent to having one MD-level ally attack another. The very least TKR could have done was cancel the treaty.

[Blande]

Yes, you were the victim when you supported Mensa's unprovoked attacks on Vanguard...twice.  You were the victim when you attacked Alpha and of course you were the victim when you attacked NPO and had your allies burn 3 allies to start yet another aggressive war.

 

No

[Roquentin]

I'll just make it clear: there is no reason for us to talk to you if you just lie to us or go silent the rest of the time, which you did or say "I'll defend my member if he agrees with a post saying you are a shitty person irl". We have no interest in you just passing whatever we say to tS to be used against us and it was clear we were probably TOO communicative in the lead up with our concerns rather than too little. 

 

And no, I don't expect anyone to declare on their treaty partner. The deceptiveness is one thing, the indignation you exhibit is another.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Roquentin