UPN Recognition of Hostilities

[Saru]

Considering the constant provocations from your membership I would have to argue that no, that's not the case.

 

It's funny that you keep playing the victim card based on merely alleged vocal provocation. And even if that was true, our current government line up is by far the most diplomatic I have seen in these types of games, perhaps even to a fault. I think you know full well that you could of came to them with anything, and it would of been dealt with. On the other hand your alliance has actually taken actions against UPN (even beyond just raiding, your declaration on us being an example) and our allies, multiple times -- and UPN's attempts to reach diplomatic resolutions have not been fruitful, purely because of Arrgh.

 

Anyway, here I was thinking we are actually getting somewhere and this dialogue is constructive, but you are still refusing to own up to your mistakes. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Saru

[Ogaden]

It's funny that you keep playing the victim card based on merely alleged vocal provocation. And even if that was true, our current government line up is by far the most diplomatic I have seen in these types of games, perhaps even to a fault. I think you know full well that you could of came to them with anything, and it would of been dealt with. On the other hand your alliance has actually taken actions against UPN and our allies, multiple times -- and UPN's attempts to reach diplomatic resolutions have not been fruitful, purely because of Arrgh.

Jacob talked to UPN government dozens of times about the spy attacks, nothing was ever done

[Saru]

Jacob talked to UPN government dozens of times about the spy attacks, nothing was ever done

 

... after months of failed talks trying to get you to cease the raids on us and our allies? 

 

Also I doubt the claim about "dozens" of times, since the spying started only recently, after it became clear that this was going to be an ongoing issue -- and our members were growing increasingly frustrated and took it upon themselves to react.

 

Had you stopped. DEIC would of stopped, and the several members who decided to join them in spying would not of done it. The spy attacks were in response to your actions.

 

PS: I don't know the ins and outs of what occured in the talks, but from what I understand is that Jacob deserves some credit for seemingly wanting diplomatic resolutions atleast. He is responsible that these talks dragged out for so long, and we did not act sooner. I guess he had good intentions, just a shame that he wasn't able to follow through.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Saru

[Bambino]

Jacob talked to UPN government dozens of times about the spy attacks, nothing was ever done

Citation needed.

 

 

... after months of failed talks trying to get you to cease the raids on us and our allies? 

 

Also I doubt the claim about "dozens" of times, since the spying started only recently, after it became clear that this was going to be an ongoing issue -- and our members were growing increasingly frustrated and took it upon themselves to react.

 

Had you stopped. DEIC would of stopped, and the several members who decided to join them in spying would not of done it. The spy attacks were in response to your actions.

 

PS: I don't know the ins and outs of what occured in the talks, but from what I understand is that Jacob deserves some credit for seemingly wanting diplomatic resolutions atleast. He is responsible that these talks dragged out for so long, and we did not act sooner. I guess he had good intentions, just a shame that he wasn't able to follow through.

 

 

Jacob definitely deserves props.  When I had to talk to him about getting an arrrgh raid to stop and to end the counters to our counters, he was gracious and reasonable.....not like what I'm seeing here.

[Clarke]

Actions speak louder than words and Arrgh was mostly about action. 

[Prefonteen]

I missed your activity Saru and Clarke. Even if we used to oppose one another. Forums ain't the same without you and other oldtimers .

 

On topic: I'm pretty sure UPN has excercised its right to war. Given the circumstances of allies being raided, you can't fault members in UPN - be it authorized or not - assisting with spy attacks. Arrgh in turn has excercised its right to declare on UPN based on what it views as a valid CB. That UPN retalliates and now has the upper hand is unfortunate for arrgh, but not something one can truly 'blame' on UPN.

 

That said, I do sympathize with arrgh over the mechanical game changes messing up their M.O.- adaptation takes time and Arrgh unfortunately did not have the time to find a new sweet spot. Further weakened by departures, their frustration is understandable.

 

Good job UPN, on defending yourself. And good luck to both parties. For all it's worth, I do think Arrgh adds an interesting dynamic to this world and for that sake, I hope they manage to pull through and innovate further.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Partisan

[TheNG]

Jacob talked to UPN government dozens of times about the spy attacks, nothing was ever done

 

 

... after months of failed talks trying to get you to cease the raids on us and our allies? 

 

Also I doubt the claim about "dozens" of times, since the spying started only recently, after it became clear that this was going to be an ongoing issue -- and our members were growing increasingly frustrated and took it upon themselves to react.

 

Had you stopped. DEIC would of stopped, as would of the several members who decided to join them. The spy attacks were in response to your actions.

 

To be entirely fair, talking to UPN about the spy attacks was a waste of time, because of a number of people have already told you, UPN neither sanctioned spy attacks until you guys attacked, nor were they responsible for the vast majority of them. It was mostly DEIC, as a direct result of the the near-continuos attacks you guys committed upon us for weeks. Saru is completely correct, had you guys stopped the raids and left us and our allies alone, then so would any spy attacks. 

But of course, that would be too much to ask of you guys. I've had one conversation with Jacob in the past few weeks, and it was him messaging me in order to inform me that my alliance was bad and that DEIC "deserved what we had coming to us."

 

As I said three or four pages ago, Arrgh just doesn't know when to stop digging themselves deeper into a hole. And it's rather sad to see that now you're finally seeing how deep you've gotten, you still insist on taking no responsibility for your actions and blaming all your problems on everyone else. So, now you reap exactly what you've sown, and will continue to do for a long time, it seems.

[Saru]

 

That said, I do sympathize with arrgh over the mechanical game changes messing up their M.O.- adaptation takes time and Arrgh unfortunately did not have the time to find a new sweet spot. Further weakened by departures, their frustration is understandable.

 

You can understand the frustration of the game changes. Hell, I share the frustration, even though in this case it has helped us. What I don't understand is the constant crying and continuous agenda pushing trying to paint us as some sort of opportunists (not that I would even have a problem with it if it was actually the case), when Arrgh declared on us -- even if it was on faulty information, like Ogaden has confirmed. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Saru

[Prefonteen]

You can understand the frustration of the game changes. Hell, I share the frustration, even though in this case it has helped us. What I don't understand is the constant crying and continuous agenda pushing trying to paint us as some sort of opportunists (not that I would even have a problem with it if it was actually the case), when Arrgh declared on us -- even if it was on faulty information, like Ogaden has confirmed. 

 

I'm not arguing against you this time around.

 

Personally, I see it as an outlet of aforementioned frustration. Do I think it's warranted?  ... Nah. You guys did not have too much choice here.

[Saru]

It's a new era. 

[Prefonteen]

It's a new era. 

 

We can bring the band back together and go back to flinging shit sometime if you like. For old times' sake? 

[Ogaden]

You can understand the frustration of the game changes. Hell, I share the frustration, even though in this case it has helped us. What I don't understand is the constant crying and continuous agenda pushing trying to paint us as some sort of opportunists (not that I would even have a problem with it if it was actually the case), when Arrgh declared on us -- even if it was on faulty information, like Ogaden has confirmed. 

Saru you're kind of putting words in my mouth, I at least have never accused anyone of being opportunists, besides which we are ourselves opportunists, and I don't even see that as a dirty word per se.

 

The only thing I've accused UPN of doing is hitting our members with spy attacks, which was indeed an ongoing problem, whether it was condoned by government or not.

[Saru]

Saru you're kind of putting words in my mouth, I at least have never accused anyone of being opportunists, besides which we are ourselves opportunists, and I don't even see that as a dirty word per se.

 

The only thing I've accused UPN of doing is hitting our members with spy attacks, which was indeed an ongoing problem, whether it was condoned by government or not.

 

I didn't mean you specifically Ogaden. Others in the thread have explicitly said so though -- and it is simply not true, even if there is nothing wrong with it as such.

 

You are correct that some of our members grew tired of all the failed diplomacy attempts (over the course of months,) and decided to take matters into their own hands and reacted in the form of spying. Do you really fault them for this? 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Saru

[Ogaden]

I didn't mean you specifically Ogaden. Others in the thread have explicitly said so though -- and it is simply not true, even if there is nothing wrong with it as such.

 

You are correct that some of our members grew tired of all the failed diplomacy attempts (over the course of months,) and decided to take matters into their own hands and reacted in the form of spying. Do you really fault them for this? 

 

Whether they felt like they were justified or not, it was still an act of war

[Saru]

Whether they felt like they were justified or not, it was still an act of war

 

I guess you will stay consistent and admit that Arrgh committed multiple "acts of war" on UPN, our allies and our protectorate then?

 

Anyway I am glad you see it as such, and did declare war on response, essentially forcing our hand. Because it would not of surprised me if the UPN government still would of attempted a diplomatic resolution to this, and give you another chance to cease the multiple acts of war on us, our allies and our protectorate.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Saru

[Clarke]

Arrgh is presenting itself way too much like the victim, the truth is any attack on you was mostly justified and Arrgh deserved a beat-down. TheNG posted his interaction with Arrgh above and well that isn't the talk of reasonable people or people who weren't warranted a beat-down. 

[Ogaden]

Arrgh is presenting itself way too much like the victim, the truth is any attack on you was mostly justified and Arrgh deserved a beat-down. TheNG posted his interaction with Arrgh above and well that isn't the talk of reasonable people or people who weren't warranted a beat-down. 

 

The world is more complicated than a black and white world of victims and aggressors, ultimately there was a lot of provocations on both sides

[Clarke]

The world is more complicated than a black and white world of victims and aggressors, ultimately there was a lot of provocations on both sides

Perhaps with other alliances but we have nothing to do with you and you took it upon yourself to attack. 

It's pretty black and it was all you. 

[Ogaden]

Perhaps with other alliances but we have nothing to do with you and you took it upon yourself to attack. 

It's pretty black and it was all you. 

You mean with DEIC?  You guys kept picking fights with Jacob for some reason

[Saru]

You mean with DEIC?  You guys kept picking fights with Jacob for some reason

 

Share the list of 'provocations' in regards to UPN too please. 

[Clarke]

You mean with DEIC?  You guys kept picking fights with Jacob for some reason

We didn't pick fights with Jacob and we didn't fight Jacob.

And if there was interaction it was because you raided us, cause and effect. 

 

Jacob is nothing but a low rent troll and has being that way in every interaction I know of that he had with DEIC. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Clarke

[Bambino]

The world is more complicated than a black and white world of victims and aggressors, ultimately there was a lot of provocations on both sides

Citation needed

 

You mean with DEIC?  You guys kept picking fights with Jacob for some reason

Citation needed

[Ogaden]

Citation needed

 

Citation needed

 

This is a discussion forum, not wikipedia, please stop shitposting

[Victor Truchev]

This is a discussion forum, not wikipedia, please stop shitposting

That's really hard to do when your accusation is coming away baseless, especially because you decided to call him out on shitposting instead of rebuffing it with evidence. :3

[Bambino]

This is a discussion forum, not wikipedia, please stop shitposting

Sure.  But in order to discuss something, we all have to be on the same page with the facts.  So far you seem to holding out on the rest of the community.  I just want citations!