LordRahl2 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Actually tying infra to improvements would be a much better "fix" then the one currently in the works... Maybe max slots plus one or somerhing? Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caecus Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 We dominate because we are allowed to dominate. How many do I think it would take? Honestly, MENSAHQ. They have the builds and the coordiantion. We are not super nations. Look at the top 10, people with scores of 4000+, they are the super nations, the real untouchables. We are just nations in the thicl end of the action, that are focused on war and fighting. If you wish to mix it up with fighters then you need to build like a fighter, it's pretty simple. You can't have 1000+ more infra, with the improvement slots and the cash generated, as well as a strong city to military ratio, something has to balance out. Having anything above 1300 infra is not a fighters build. Simply claiming untruths as the truth is not the way to go. The Arrgh 'super nations' as you put it, do not prey on the new. Ask DEIC... I'm not and never have argued for keeping improvement slots (I nerfed my cities down to 1000 infra upon joining Arrgh, I didn't keep any extra slots), I would rather see them tied to infra more closely and once 50 infra is gone, an improvement randomly gets destroyed (with the exception of power plants). I'd also rather see military count as a percentage of total populaton instead of tied to improvements (cities), with each unit costing a certain amount of manpower (troops = 1 citizen, tanks = crew of 4, planes = etc etc). Something along these lines would actually give real worth to infra. Instead we get an ill thought out change to pander to the hurt feelings and bruised egos of the high infra brigade. Yeah, that's the tough part. Sheepy says that the point of keeping improvements after infra loss is to allow someone who is losing to have the potential to bounce back. Which, granted, I believe is a justifiable reason. Which is why I have no idea how to fix this problem. And I'm not arguing that a fighter build should be anything above 1k infra. In fact, I would definitely agree with you. If you have around 1k infra per each city, it grants you an advantage over nations within your same score that have higher infra, but lower city counts. But the problem is, these "super nations" have infra disproportionate to their actual size. 1k infra is suppose to yield only 20 improvements. You already saw above that people with averaging 700 infra have 3-4 times the actual amount of improvements their infrastructure can have. 14 improvements is enough to get a power plant, 3 barracks, 5 factories, and 5 airbases. Instead, you have people with full military builds, with full production builds, with full econ builds. That's honestly op. What I am saying, is that there are downs and up to having low (fighter) or high (econ) infra builds. But when you have effectively canceled out the majority of the downs, it becomes broken. Quote It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassili Dovgan Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 you went from ~68 to like 35 or so also where the !@#$ did you go? who is phoenix? are you really telling me that i just created the strongest leftist alliance in the game by !@#$ accident? this planet :facepalm: lol no, we merged with them. There will probably be an announcement in the next couple days or so... Also, what makes you think that you have something to do with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 @Caesus, if that was Sheepy's intent regarding infra/improvements then he completely went against it in the last update and nothing in what has been released to us plebeians in the upcoming update really adresses it. Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliteCanada Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Yeah, that's the tough part. Sheepy says that the point of keeping improvements after infra loss is to allow someone who is losing to have the potential to bounce back. Which, granted, I believe is a justifiable reason. Which is why I have no idea how to fix this problem. And I'm not arguing that a fighter build should be anything above 1k infra. In fact, I would definitely agree with you. If you have around 1k infra per each city, it grants you an advantage over nations within your same score that have higher infra, but lower city counts. But the problem is, these "super nations" have infra disproportionate to their actual size. 1k infra is suppose to yield only 20 improvements. You already saw above that people with averaging 700 infra have 3-4 times the actual amount of improvements their infrastructure can have. 14 improvements is enough to get a power plant, 3 barracks, 5 factories, and 5 airbases. Instead, you have people with full military builds, with full production builds, with full econ builds. That's honestly op. What I am saying, is that there are downs and up to having low (fighter) or high (econ) infra builds. But when you have effectively canceled out the majority of the downs, it becomes broken. Wouldn't nation score based off of population fix this issue of taking advantage of game mechanics to raid low-tier nations? Or losing a percentage of improvements based off of infra loss (but not all)? Also what's the point of raiding, there's no way the amount of loot you gain in the low-tier nations makes it worth the stunted growth delay. I understand some may not want to play "build infrastructure sim" but doesn't remaining low to loot just completely stagnate your growth and other players? Edited March 28, 2016 by EliteCanada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 'New' players are welcome in to 'Arrgh's Death Range', if they come well equipped, they will travel safely through our field of killing. If not they will learn the harsh lessons that the 'old' players who currently occupy the land have learnt. That being said, these Fresh Faced 800-1000+ score nations do not have to make the pilgrimage alone, many alliances out there can show them the safe path across. Walk quickly and carry a big stick, is the saying I think... Also what's the point of raiding, there's no way the amount of loot you gain in the low-tier nations makes it worth the stunted growth delay. I understand some may not want to play "build infrastructure sim" but doesn't remaining low to loot just completely stagnate your growth and other players? There is no point to it. It's just something to do. I find the life of a pirate to be more fulfiling then not logging on for a week and then coming back to a few more millions in the bank, a few thousand more resoruces and then spending it on some infra and maybe a new city. Infra is not important, cities are the most important, they dictate your true power. It's a shame that Ischelle left the game, she was the perfect example of how raiding can aid your build, at less then 150 days old, she had caught up with me in city counts and was one of Mensa's strongest accounts. Edited March 28, 2016 by Wayne 2 Quote ☾☆ Warrior of Dio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caecus Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 @Caesus, if that was Sheepy's intent regarding infra/improvements then he completely went against it in the last update and nothing in what has been released to us plebeians in the upcoming update really adresses it. Not sure what the last update was, haven't been paying too much attention. Can you link me what's new? Thanks, I appreciate it. Wouldn't nation score based off of population fix this issue of taking advantage of game mechanics to raid low-tier nations? Or losing a percentage of improvements based off of infra loss (but not all)? Also what's the point of raiding, there's no way the amount of loot you gain in the low-tier nations makes it worth the stunted growth delay. I understand some may not want to play "build infrastructure sim" but doesn't remaining low to loot just completely stagnate your growth and other players? If you had score based off of population, it would be worse. Again, since military is inexorably tied to how many improvements, it's all about how many improvements you can have. Sure, population limits soldiers, but only soldiers. Not tanks, and not aircraft, which makes it very powerful. And I think that's the point of the build. You don't grow. I know that seems really weird and odd, but it's better for them not to grow. It allows these nations to monopolize a certain score range. The loot is more or less upkeep for their over inflated militaries. 'New' players are welcome in to 'Arrgh's Death Range', if they come well equipped, they will travel safely through our field of killing. If not they will learn the harsh lessons that the 'old' players who currently occupy the land have learnt. That being said, these Fresh Faced 800-1000+ score nations do not have to make the pilgrimage alone, many alliances out there can show them the safe path across. Walk quickly and carry a big stick, is the saying I think... This. The fact that entire lower tier alliances disband and stay outside of Arrgh's war range is ridiculous. Quote It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11348-2222016-military-caps-donation-changes/# There you go. Bottom line is that it made it silly easy to keep people down now once they lose. Like even Rose could figure it out. 2 Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) And I think that's the point of the build. You don't grow. I know that seems really weird and odd, but it's better for them not to grow. It allows these nations to monopolize a certain score range. The loot is more or less upkeep for their over inflated militaries. Not tanks, and not aircraft, which makes it very powerful. Please, you are not a raider, don't try to speak for us. We do grow, we just don't waste our money on Infra, we spend it on cities. The true measure of power and growth. Granted, we waste a lot of cash on restocking, rearming and rebuilding, but that is part and parcel of being active in the game. We do have a cap on tanks and planes. Sheepy already tried to !@#$ us over once before. He's trying again and from what I see he likely to succeed, more due to the fact that Arrghs heart ain't in the fight anymore then anything else... Edited March 28, 2016 by Wayne 2 Quote ☾☆ Warrior of Dio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 massive 4k+ score nations serve as giant money batteries to boost up the newbies in those old mass member alliances which also don't get raided because they're strong enough to stop being raided. if arrgh wasn't disbanding them and putting them into the other alliances, they'd just be falling way behind everybody else anyway. in addition to those willing to donate or bot the baseball system getting tons of free money for nothing. the problem here is that any way you look at it, the people trying to game the game are the ones who are doing best. and i make a thread to talk about all of that and all you guys can do is read "arrgh" in the OP and start debating some shit that sheepy has already decided he wants to do. the problem is a lot bigger than this: hell, a lot of it is that you guys can't seem to actually wrap your heads around the problem that infra hugging as a gameplay strategy kills the game and makes itself obsolete by virtue of making it impossible for anybody to actually catch up sheep designed this game with capitalism's re-creation in mind and all of you dumb capitalists can't see it here just like you can't see it IRL that power begets more power and only its dispersion and constant checks on it keep things fun and interesting and actually playable for everybody. you can't just have people endlessly sitting back making tons of money as a gameplay strategy. constant growth as a gameplay strategy does not work. learn the !@#$ing lesson from (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways), god damn you people annoy me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eumirbago Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Yeeeet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 here, let me try to put it in simpler terms. IF EVERYBODY DID WHAT ARRGH DID ARRGH WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO WORK BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING ALL OF THE MONEY BY STEALING IT FROM YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE. THEY'VE JUST FOUND A WAY TO NOT HAVE REALLY REALLY OLD NATIONS BUT STILL GET MONEY OUT OF THEM. they are NOT THE PROBLEM. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caecus Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11348-2222016-military-caps-donation-changes/# There you go. Bottom line is that it made it silly easy to keep people down now once they lose. Like even Rose could figure it out. Oh, I think I saw this on the test server. Best way to find out is to fight another global war. #RollGPA2016? Quote It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Sounds like fun -lets roll someone! But yeah, I think after the next war there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth over it. Edited March 28, 2016 by LordRahl2 1 Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Sounds like fun -lets roll someone! But yeah, I think after the next war there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth over it. NPO are gonna get so wrecked... Quote ☾☆ Warrior of Dio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malichy Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I empathize with your raider mentality as much as a gov member of a mass recruit alliance is capable of empathizing with your point of view. 5 Quote MofFA United Purple Nations Former Grosskomtur, FA Minister and Spitler (IA) -Teutonic Order. Former Reclusiarch (IA) - UPN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatkitteh Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 >Claims no high ranking alliances are raided by Arrgh >raids DEIC Quote :sheepy: :sheepy: Greatkitteh was here.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saru Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Welcome back Hereno. Quote Second in Command of UPN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Welcome back Hereno. i've been back for three months and i still hate your avatar but thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassili Dovgan Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 i've been back for three months and i still hate your avatar but thank you How on earth could someone hate that?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 How on earth could someone hate that?! something something i don't need to see boobs everywhere all the time something something sexual objectification of women something something aren't you supposed to be a leftist something something i hate this !@#$ing game 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliteCanada Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) NPO are gonna get so wrecked... Good one >Claims no high ranking alliances are raided by Arrgh >raids DEIC They're still an AA? I mean err, yeah that was surprising. DEIC being as solid and militarily competent as they are. Edited March 28, 2016 by EliteCanada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNG Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Good one They're still an AA? I mean err, yeah that was surprisingly. DEIC being as solid and militarily competent as they are. *Checks nation age* *6 days old* If by "still an AA", you mean that we've been around for the past week like you, then yeah, I guess we are still around. Glad to see our reputation has preceded us though. 1 Quote "They say the secret to success is being at the right place at the right time. But since you never know when the right time is going to be, I figure the trick is to find the right place and just hang around!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <Kastor> He left and my !@#$ nation is !@#$ed up. And the Finance guy refuses to help. He just writes his !@#$ plays. <Kastor> And laughs and shit. <Kastor> And gives out !@#$ huge loans to Arthur James, that !@#$ bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliteCanada Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) *Checks nation age* *6 days old* If by "still an AA", you mean that we've been around for the past week like you, then yeah, I guess we are still around. Glad to see our reputation has preceded us though. Don't worry I've read some threads and heard of your... Err, history. Edited March 28, 2016 by EliteCanada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Prefontaine Posted March 28, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2016 Lets address some of the bullshit. Since your DoE was both IC and OOC lets see if I can avoid a warn talking OOC in IC forums. Arrgh did not disband Cobalt. TEst did. The weeks leading up to when our raids on their top (see: gov) member(s) began I spent my time getting Rose to cancel their protectorate, and making sure SK wouldn't activate their ODP so that we could attack them. I used politics for war (see what I did there). Claiming to be the cause for FSA to disband isn't something to hang your hat on either. FSA was doomed to disband when they created their second, third, fourth, I've lost track now DoE. SWF, sure I'll give you credit there as I wasn't even paying attention to them. But to get back to my point with Cobalt. Arrgh didn't start attacking until after Rose protection was lifted, which was done through politics, part of the game some people find fun. Plenty of people have different styles in which they wish to play the game. On to possibly the most important part of your OP, the part where you mentioned me (<3). Sheepy wanted to make a change to the score system previously. He made a post about it that I think he even linked in the OP of the testers thread,and it received the momentous butthurt from Arrgh the likes had not been seen in a game plagued with butthurt. Sheepy, in his attempts to make everyone happy (see: idiot) decided to try a new method which were population based military caps, which again Arrgh cried about and a couple people even quit simply at the idea of them before anyone actually looked and saw they did nothing to stop the problem or have any meaningful impact on low infra raiding. Sheepy still wanted to address the problems highlighted recently by Arrgh due to the score imbalance, and as I had been the one campaigning to get it changed a year ago he asked me to be the public voice of the change. Thus your assumption that it was the closed dev team manipulating him to get what we wanted, he was using me to get what he wanted. It just so happened I wanted it to, but not his system which is why I proposed my system. But whatever, I'm not the admin. Having me be the public mouthpiece was an OOC political move by him because I've used the imbalance in the past, and recently to end the TEst v Arrgh tickle-fest as well as a few times in between. That and I fear no crybaby pirate posts. The change is not OOC vs IC. The change is fixing a problem with the game. I've played as a low infra build of most econ players 1500 infra up until 10 cities then adding 100 more infra in each city every time I moved up another city (1600 at 11, 1700 at 12 etc..) Standardly I keep a large amount of military on me, and the fact that I could not come close to being in range of a city of equal cities and greater military at the time was ludicrous. Arrgh may not consider 2k infra at 15 cities a small amount, but compared to most players at that level, especially the war avoiding ones, I'm at the low end. The change as I said is to help address the fact that players with massive militaries and much higher caps were only able to be engaged by people with smaller militaries and smaller military caps. But please, continued to cry about it as Arrgh members flee to alliances to avoid the looming pirate hunt once they're in range of nations of similar military strength. All that being said I do agree with you that things are currently terrible here. When UPN/VE/Rose/Alpha all became effectively tied to one another I started referring to this point as the (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways)-Phase of Orbis. I could be wrong, but I imagine large scale war frequency will dramatically slow down compared to what they've been since the start of this round. When the next war happens it'll likely be positioned so that it's a curb stomp rather than anything close and only happen after treaties are stacked heavily in one sides favor. And all of that is not a problem of mechanics but a problem of the people in charge of the top alliances. Politics is driven by the player base and I feel the player base in charge of politics currently are going to move the world to a (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) climate. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am (but I still hope). Part of which is what I was referring to when I made this post: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11792-sk-celebrates-5-years-of-existence/?p=219948 So in short. Arrgh isn't as grand as you claim, your accomplishment list was mostly bullshit fluff. They seem to be full of cowards (not all, obviously) who are afraid of fighting on similar footing. I think the game community has gone to shit and has likely been shit even when I was in charge of it but at least I tried to not create a hegemoney. Lastly good luck and hope you have fun even though I have little to no respect for you politically. Cheers. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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