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A Treatise on the Duplicity of Anti-Pirate Activities


Hereno
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Good luck! If the alliance is still alive once I'm back from my vacation I might join.

It's my birthday today, and I'm 33!

That means only one thing...BRING IT IN, GUYS!

*every character from every game, comic, cartoon, TV show, movie, and book reality come in with everything for a HUGE party*

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I'd respect this more if you could actually be honest about Arrgh and their tactics.

 

 

 

 

Good luck and nice WoT.

 

I am currently being smashed to bits by a member of your alliance with more cities than me and an average infrastructure level of under 500 per city.

 

I've characterized Arrgh! in this announcement as an alliance that disbands small alliances through sheer firepower by taking advantage of a game mechanism originally designed to allow the losers to fight back in losing wars and help even the odds so that they cannot be destroyed very easily, which creates an environment where older, stronger alliances have less competition and can grow relatively unhindered.

 

I've suggested multiple ways to combat this, keeping in mind that losing ground attacks can destroy improvements, such as having air strikes destroy improvements, having improvements count toward score, and simply taking advantage of the tactic itself. There is no dishonesty in my announcement. I am not a dishonest person. If you feel I have misrepresented anything in my treatise, I encourage you to speak out and make the truth known. I have nothing to hide.

 

---

 

Since I'm posting, thank you to everyone who has wished us well so far and/or shown support, be it publicly or privately, for the ideas behind this alliance or the alliance itself.

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Like dealing with 40 improvements cities at 1k score is fun. I had to gimp my nation to even get close to that range. Good luck in your venture.

 

How many players are running that kind of build?  4-5 at most... I assume.

☾☆

Warrior of Dio

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I am currently being smashed to bits by a member of your alliance with more cities than me and an average infrastructure level of under 500 per city.

 

I've characterized Arrgh! in this announcement as an alliance that disbands small alliances through sheer firepower by taking advantage of a game mechanism originally designed to allow the losers to fight back in losing wars and help even the odds so that they cannot be destroyed very easily, which creates an environment where older, stronger alliances have less competition and can grow relatively unhindered.

 

I've suggested multiple ways to combat this, keeping in mind that losing ground attacks can destroy improvements, such as having air strikes destroy improvements, having improvements count toward score, and simply taking advantage of the tactic itself. There is no dishonesty in my announcement. I am not a dishonest person. If you feel I have misrepresented anything in my treatise, I encourage you to speak out and make the truth known. I have nothing to hide.

 

---

 

Since I'm posting, thank you to everyone who has wished us well so far and/or shown support, be it publicly or privately, for the ideas behind this alliance or the alliance itself.

 

I'm going to go ahead and say 8 cities versus 7 isn't really the "target" of the proposed changes. Not sure why an honest person would try to cast that as similar to Arrgh's 12 vs 6 (or similar) tactics.

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I'm going to go ahead and say 8 cities versus 7 isn't really the "target" of the proposed changes. Not sure why an honest person would try to cast that as similar to Arrgh's 12 vs 6 (or similar) tactics.

 

I didn't, Holton, although I'm pretty sure that with 5k tanks, a few thousand more infra would probably put that guy out of my range. Stop shitting up my thread with your bullshit. If you really feel the need to take out some anger on me, you're more than welcome to continue bombing my infra like your alliance-mates have because I raided one of your inactive members.

Edited by Hereno
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I'm going to go ahead and say 8 cities versus 7 isn't really the "target" of the proposed changes. Not sure why an honest person would try to cast that as similar to Arrgh's 12 vs 6 (or similar) tactics.

 

The target of these proposed changes are aimed at maybe 5-10 players.  All of which could be countered with a bit of teamwork, dedication and coordination.  This 'Arrgh tactic' is not as widespread as the infra-lovers would have you believe.

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☾☆

Warrior of Dio

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The target of these proposed changes are aimed at maybe 5-10 players.  All of which could be countered with a bit of teamwork, dedication and coordination.  This 'Arrgh tactic' is not as widespread as the infra-lovers would have you believe.

 

Meh, for the record, Sheepy has changed shit for less. Take the spy system for example. Only around 10 people had more than 150 spies, and spies don't do damage to infrastructure (Btw, still a bit bitter about this spy stuff). What this system right now has is, sure, maybe roughly around the same number of people who had more than 150 spies, but unlike spies, they are in a position where they simply can't be challenged by other players. When you need more than 4-5 players to take down someone and there are only 3 defense slots, it's broken. 

 

For relative stats:

 

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=13193, 13 cities, averaging 25.84 improvements and 869 infra, score of 1501.00

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=15903, 14 cities, averaging 19.78 improvements and 721.84 infra, score of 1405.22

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=15902, 14 cities, averaging 19.57 improvements and 655.14 infra, score of 1369.83

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=10799, 12 cities, averaging 32.00 improvements and 787.27 infra, score of 1293.20

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=11175, 12 cities, averaging 43.75 improvements (And yes, I checked that number twice) and 750 infra, score of 1283.15

 

To put it in perspective, here is a normal person from the same population:

 

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=6975, 10 cities, averaging 30.2 improvements and 1520 infra, score of 1312.75

 

 

A guy with 12 cities, a whooping almost 44 improvements per city still has less score than a guy with 10 cities and nowhere near enough improvements. Coming from me, who originally had 250 spies and wanted to pawn myself off to the highest bidder to spy the living shit out of anything that moved, THIS IS BROKEN.

 

 

I'm not in agreement as to how it should be fixed though. But seeing as how Sheepy did fix things for less, I do think that, if not for the remaining bitterness in my heart, I would like to see this fixed. 

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It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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I didn't, Holton, although I'm pretty sure that with 5k tanks, a few thousand more infra would probably put that guy out of my range. Stop shitting up my thread with your bullshit. If you really feel the need to take out some anger on me, you're more than welcome to continue bombing my infra like your alliance-mates have because I raided one of your inactive members.

 

Unlike you, I really don't see the need to take this discussion OOC.

 

Your soapbox and your 'mission' are both flawed. I'm simply doing my part to correct your path if you truly wish to uphold the values you're trying to project. Didn't you see where I wished you luck?

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Granted, on the pro side, the military upkeep for some of those nations said above is ridiculous. Which is probably why they need to constantly raid in order to maintain that kind of military. With the exception of the 44 improvements guy (he has ITC, lol), practically every one of those guys said above need at least some sort of alternative funding, either by raiding or by their alliance. As per nature of the alliance, raiding turns out to be the best source of income. 

 

There is also another down side to the tactic. If they somehow lost more soldiers fighting, then they lose them for good (or at least until their infrastructure goes back up). The population limit does serve as a limiter to their military, so if you do somehow manage to kill all those 120k soldiers, they can't buy them all back (or at least up until their population limit). On the other hand, tanks are up for grabs as long as you have steel. 

 

Both of these downsides contribute to target a single population: new players. What you are looking at right now is a giant wall between the lower and mid tier. Anyone below the mid tier is likely a new player. Anyone above has probably played for more than 6 months. "Oh, you can just have some teamwork and dedication to fix this problem," is what people say. Which is true, I would more or less agree with that statement. But the problem is, the target population is most likely to be disorganized, unfamiliar with the game, and lacking the sort of social capital and experience that most veteran players have acquired. The DNR also forces those players to get their income from said new players. And it is in the best interest of these players to attack the disorganized and incompetent.

 

So, while those nations, for whatever reason why they are not building up their infrastructure again (perhaps their social capital is in lacking), they are forced to essentially prey off of the target population that is perhaps most critical for this game's survival. 

It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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Meh, for the record, Sheepy has changed shit for less. Take the spy system for example. Only around 10 people had more than 150 spies, and spies don't do damage to infrastructure (Btw, still a bit bitter about this spy stuff). What this system right now has is, sure, maybe roughly around the same number of people who had more than 150 spies, but unlike spies, they are in a position where they simply can't be challenged by other players. When you need more than 4-5 players to take down someone and there are only 3 defense slots, it's broken. 

 

For relative stats:

 

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=13193, 13 cities, averaging 25.84 improvements and 869 infra, score of 1501.00

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=15903, 14 cities, averaging 19.78 improvements and 721.84 infra, score of 1405.22

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=15902, 14 cities, averaging 19.57 improvements and 655.14 infra, score of 1369.83

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=10799, 12 cities, averaging 32.00 improvements and 787.27 infra, score of 1293.20

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=11175, 12 cities, averaging 43.75 improvements (And yes, I checked that number twice) and 750 infra, score of 1283.15

 

To put it in perspective, here is a normal person from the same population:

 

https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=6975, 10 cities, averaging 30.2 improvements and 1520 infra, score of 1312.75

 

 

A guy with 12 cities, a whooping almost 44 improvements per city still has less score than a guy with 10 cities and nowhere near enough improvements. Coming from me, who originally had 250 spies and wanted to pawn myself off to the highest bidder to spy the living shit out of anything that moved, THIS IS BROKEN.

 

 

I'm not in agreement as to how it should be fixed though. But seeing as how Sheepy did fix things for less, I do think that, if not for the remaining bitterness in my heart, I would like to see this fixed. 

 

Mensa was one of the most spied up Alliances in the game when Sheepy nerfed Spies.  Pretty sure Mensa alone had 10 guys with 150.  I was one of them.

 

We can be challenged within the current mechanics, either through teamwork and coordination with 1500 city builds (as shown by maths and is the current Mensa build) or by going to the extreme method that Pre (on his own) showed.  Yes, my build is a powerful build for my score range, this is due to the fact I keep my infra low.  For the benefits of being strong and having an extra 3-4 improvement slots over what my infra can support, I take a massive hit in the daily cost of running this build. 

 

To your ninja'd post: This guy is the lowest range guy I can hit, https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=4002600 days! Not a great example, he's been inactive for a while and no doubt raided down the ranges. 

 

So I checked the bottom 10, this guy was the youngest at 143 days: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=27009Thats nearly 5 months playing time.  I do not class that as a new player. I then decided to check the ages of the 'victims' of the linked players you provided.

 

Dan77: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=21262241 days, not a baby

Me: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=3051980 days, a baby but boosted a great deal by his alliance it would seem

Ryu: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=21262241 days, same as Dan

Jacob: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=16301a whooping 351 days, almost a year old!

Karrajor, (this guy is a real raiding pest it would seem, his one battle consists of) https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=6944a MASSIVE 552 days old.

 

The notion that we are killing the game by making it harder for new players is a myth.  We would rather rich, high infra, no army, old targets, that is where you make your bread and butter!

Edited by Wayne
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Warrior of Dio

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Mensa was one of the most spied up Alliances in the game when Sheepy nerfed Spies.  Pretty sure Mensa alone had 10 guys with 150.  I was one of them.

 

We can be challenged within the current mechanics, either through teamwork and coordination with 1500 city builds (as shown by maths and is the current Mensa build) or by going to the extreme method that Pre (on his own) showed.  Yes, my build is a powerful build for my score range, this is due to the fact I keep my infra low.  For the benefits of being strong and having an extra 3-4 improvement slots over what my infra can support, I take a massive hit in the daily cost of running this build. 

 

To your ninja'd post: This guy is the lowest range guy I can hit, https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=4002600 days! Not a great example, he's been inactive for a while and no doubt raided down the ranges. 

 

So I checked the bottom 10, this guy was the youngest at 143 days: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=27009Thats nearly 5 months playing time.  I do not class that as a new player. I then decided to check the ages of the 'victims' of the linked players you provided.

 

Dan77: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=21262241 days, not a baby

Me: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=3051980 days, a baby but boosted a great deal by his alliance it would seem

Ryu: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=21262241 days, same as Dan

Jacob: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=16301a whooping 351 days, almost a year old!

Karrajor, (this guy is a real raiding pest it would seem, his one battle consists of) https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=6944a MASSIVE 552 days old.

 

The notion that we are killing the game by making it harder for new players is a myth.  We would rather rich, high infra, no army, old targets, that is where you make your bread and butter!

 

But even if you can't hit new players, that still doesn't change the fact that Arrgh and nations like Arrgh still serve as a wall between the mid and lower tier! It still doesn't change the fact that your build inherent requires income that has to come from either your alliance (and a generous alliance that would be) or raiding! Even if there are veteran players who are still in the lower tier, it still doesn't change the fact that Arrgh can single-handedly control which nation moves beyond the lower tier! Eventually new players have to get to your level if they want to keep growing in this game. 

 

Again, for the relatively "insignificant" (granted, I'm biased in using that word) role that spies played before the nerf, I still think that something has to be done to address this. And, unlike the conspiracy theory that the top 10 in the spy list is going to hold everyone below that hostage, there is an actual organized group of super nations that dominate the mid-lower tier. 

 

Let's be honest here, how many people do you think it's going to take to "organize" against Arrgh's 1st page of super nations and actually come out on top? We are not talking one on one, or one super nation against 5. This is a discussion that there is a veteran organized alliance that contains at least 5 nations that have disproportionate militaries and improvements relative to their size against whatever organized force that may come out of a population that is, by virtue of being new nations, disorganized and relatively incompetent. And you honestly expect they have a fighting chance. 

 

Also, I apologize. Upon reflection, there must have been more than 10 people with more than 150 spies at the point of the nerf. I keenly remember how annoying it was that Apeman had 150 spies when he was nuking BoC, back when the assassination probability dropped like a stone. My memory of who had more than 150 spies, however, was in reference to before there was talk about nerfing spies. This, if I remember correctly, was when I just broke 200 spies, and the person in 10th had a little under 150. 

Edited by Caecus

It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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As much as I dislike everything Hereno stands for, and I do mean everything, I have to agree with him and wish him luck on his future endeavors.

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“I'm cheap and enjoy butchering” - Manthrax

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What?

 

you went from ~68 to like 35 or so

 

also where the !@#$ did you go? who is phoenix? are you really telling me that i just created the strongest leftist alliance in the game by !@#$ing accident?

 

this planet :facepalm:

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Again, for the relatively "insignificant" (granted, I'm biased in using that word) role that spies played before the nerf, I still think that something has to be done to address this. And, unlike the conspiracy theory that the top 10 in the spy list is going to hold everyone below that hostage, there is an actual organized group of super nations that dominate the mid-lower tier. 

 

Let's be honest here, how many people do you think it's going to take to "organize" against Arrgh's 1st page of super nations and actually come out on top? We are not talking one on one, or one super nation against 5. This is a discussion that there is a veteran organized alliance that contains at least 5 nations that have disproportionate militaries and improvements relative to their size against whatever organized force that may come out of a population that is, by virtue of being new nations, disorganized and relatively incompetent. And you honestly expect they have a fighting chance. 

 

 

 

We dominate because we are allowed to dominate.  How many do I think it would take? Honestly, MENSAHQ.  They have the builds and the coordiantion.  We are not super nations.  Look at the top 10, people with scores of 4000+, they are the super nations, the real untouchables.  We are just nations in the thicl end of the action, that are focused on war and fighting.  If you wish to mix it up with fighters then you need to build like a fighter, it's pretty simple.  You can't have 1000+ more infra, with the improvement slots and the cash generated, as well as a strong city to military ratio, something has to balance out.  Having anything above 1300 infra is not a fighters build.  Simply claiming untruths as the truth is not the way to go.  The Arrgh 'super nations' as you put it, do not prey on the new.   Ask DEIC...

 

I'm not and never have argued for keeping improvement slots (I nerfed my cities down to 1000 infra upon joining Arrgh, I didn't keep any extra slots), I would rather see them tied to infra more closely and once 50 infra is gone, an improvement randomly gets destroyed (with the exception of power plants).  I'd also rather see military count as a percentage of total populaton instead of tied to improvements (cities), with each unit costing a certain amount of manpower (troops = 1 citizen, tanks = crew of 4, planes = etc etc).  Something along these lines would actually give real worth to infra.  Instead we get an ill thought out change to pander to the hurt feelings and bruised egos of the high infra brigade.

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Warrior of Dio

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