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The Great Debate on Atheism


Abu Haddad
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  1. 1. Who is the winner of the debate



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Yeah, atheism is just the latest religion.

 

The problem of something from nothing persists with or without god. God adds further impossiblity to the universe.

 

How does it add further impossibility? It maintains the same level imo. Both "religions" (rhetorically speaking that is) both believe in things being created with no "hard" (tangible) proof.

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Yeah, atheism is just the latest religion.

 

The problem of something from nothing persists with or without god. God adds further impossiblity to the universe.

 

Literally isn't a religion. And when I mean literally I mean it literally cannot be a religion. Just like the independent party in US politics isn't a party. It's just a single belief or policy.

22:26 +Kadin: too far man

22:26 +Kadin: too far

22:26 Lordofpuns[boC]: that's the point of incest Kadin

22:26 Lordofpuns[boC]: to go farther

22:27 Bet: or father

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Literally isn't a religion. And when I mean literally I mean it literally cannot be a religion. Just like the independent party in US politics isn't a party. It's just a single belief or policy.

 

It's literally a rhetoric. And when I mean literally I mean it literally is a rhetoric. A rhetoric or hyperbole; take your pick m8.

Edited by EliteCanada
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Instead of something rudimentary being spawned from nothing, god being the creator, would require the most sophisticated, complex "thing" being created from nothing. More impossible.

 

Atheists don't necessarily believe in a specific belief of...really anything other than there is no god. I've met a wide range of atheists, with all sorts of beliefs. Sure, most of them are aware of the big bang theory and other scientific concepts. Most people are.

 

Atheists simply "think" (believe, reason, w/e) that the universe was not created by a sentient being. There's no need for faith in that.

 

No, it literally cannot be a religion. I too know corporate law. Like I said, it's a diverse group. The reason I would term atheism a religion is it doesn't have to be a god or an all encompassing belief system to fit the bill. The purpose of religious belief is to plug a gaping hole in the human mind. That hole and that plug change through the ages. And atheism is the step where God dies. Atheism is more often anti-theism. Rather than not believing in god, they believe there is no god. It's actually a huge difference. They still have worm brains, working to justify existence - stimulus and response. Most atheists struggle with it. It's apparent in their bitterness.

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Instead of something rudimentary being spawned from nothing, god being the creator, would require the most sophisticated, complex "thing" being created from nothing. More impossible.

 

I disagree. Impossible is impossible. It's like saying infinite + 1 is larger than infinite. That cannot be.

 

Atheists don't necessarily believe in a specific belief of...really anything other than there is no god. I've met a wide range of atheists, with all sorts of beliefs. Sure, most of them are aware of the big bang theory and other scientific concepts. Most people are.

 

Atheists simply "think" (believe, reason, w/e) that the universe was not created by a sentient being. There's no need for faith in that.

 

No, it literally cannot be a religion. I too know corporate law. Like I said, it's a diverse group. The reason I would term atheism a religion is it doesn't have to be a god or an all encompassing belief system to fit the bill. The purpose of religious belief is to plug a gaping hole in the human mind. That hole and that plug change through the ages. And atheism is the step where God dies. Atheism is more often anti-theism. Rather than not believing in god, they believe there is no god. It's actually a huge difference. They still have worm brains, working to justify existence - stimulus and response. Most atheists struggle with it. It's apparent in their bitterness.

 

Honestly when you said atheism is the new religion it could not be more obvious you were speaking in abstract terms with religion being rhetoric. Anyone who cared to try knew what you meant.

Edited by EliteCanada
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A religion is needed for the nation.

 

Atheism is not a religion, it as an absence of a religion and leads to Nihilism. Atheism is long term destructive to the nation and needs to be wiped out. 

 

One suggestion would be to hold the leader of the nation as a god, in order to inspire national unity and strength, this has been shown to be effective in places like North Korea. That runs into the problem however of people doubting their divinity, as it would be clear to most that they are not without extensive brainwashing as a child.

 

The solution to this is to have a religion in the lines of Christianity or Islam, a state church religion in the lines of a Caliphate or Outremer. A nation where the people are united under a religion. 

Edited by Tulip Boy
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That reasoning is very similar to theism. In theism you believe there is a creator and in atheism you believe there is no creator. If you believe there is no creator you literally believe that nothing has created something (molecules/stars/chemicals/what have you); which kick-started the big bang and all life as we know it. This is an inherent paradox, for how can nothing create something? 

 

 

This is your sticking point with atheism. It's not the opposite of the belief in a creator or as you put it, the belief that there is no creator. It's not belief at all. I believe what I have evidence for, if there is no evidence for something it does not exist so far as I am concerned. Just because someone is labouring under a belief system doesn't make others who don't share it have a counter belief system. I don't actively go around believing in the none existence of a myriad different gods or spirits or whatever, they don't enter my thoughts at all.

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I disagree. Impossible is impossible. It's like saying infinite + 1 is larger than infinite. That cannot be.

Sure, but "impossible" is an exaggeration of the improbablity. Obviously, the universe is possible. God is more improbable than other explainations for existense. God is possible, too. I have reason to think God may evolve in the distant future. With infinite time and finite matter, all things that are remotely possible will happen.

 

 

Honestly when you said atheism is the new religion it could not be more obvious you were speaking in abstract terms with religion being rhetoric. Anyone who cared to try knew what you meant.

Too many atheists and non-atheists treat it as a cult.

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That's probably because religious organizations and churches are actively colluding to force religious laws (or religiously-inspired laws) on the people. "Atheism" has become a broad grouping for people who oppose this to organize and communicate. It's true that the dictionary definition of atheism itself is non-belief in god/s, which doesn't imply that people would group together as it's too simple for a political grouping, but the "atheist movement" is broader than just non-belief, it also includes those who support separation of church and state and secularism.

Edited by Andrezj Kolarov
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And secular humanism. Humanism is the cult of many atheists.

 

Political activity is reasonable. What isn't is the constant reinforcement (indoctrination) of atheist "belief" among atheist communities.

What indoctrination? All I've seen is a healthy exchange of ideas. There was that "Atheist Plus" thing but that is now widely discredited.

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This is your sticking point with atheism. It's not the opposite of the belief in a creator or as you put it, the belief that there is no creator. It's not belief at all. I believe what I have evidence for, if there is no evidence for something it does not exist so far as I am concerned. Just because someone is labouring under a belief system doesn't make others who don't share it have a counter belief system. I don't actively go around believing in the none existence of a myriad different gods or spirits or whatever, they don't enter my thoughts at all.

 

Christians: believe in a Creator having made all.

 

Atheists: can't explain the creation of all (can't use The Big Bang Theory to counter this because it doesn't account for why the circumstances leading up to it occurred), but still believe the Universe was created (obviously since we're still here)... Somehow? Atheists still believe in a creation of the Universe, but just not from a Creator.

 

If I could be given clear reasonable facts and science that explained everything I would also likely be an atheist, but to me those two levels of "belief" (rhetorically speaking, not literally) are on the same level, so why not believe in a creator? Is it any more incredulous than believing in a non-creator? Imo no.

 

I don't actively go around believing in the none existence of a myriad different gods or spirits or whatever, they don't enter my thoughts at all.

 

Many theists would say they don't actively go around believing in the existence of a Creator, but instead they just believe that there is a Creator (whether good, bad, or indifferent not being relevant), but that the thought never really enters their mind. 

Edited by EliteCanada
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Sure, but "impossible" is an exaggeration of the improbablity. Obviously, the universe is possible. God is more improbable than other explainations for existense. God is possible, too. I have reason to think God may evolve in the distant future. With infinite time and finite matter, all things that are remotely possible will happen.

 

 

 

Too many atheists and non-atheists treat it as a cult.

 

True, but I think the difference between the levels of improbabilities are so minute and essentially non-existent. The belief of everything always having been here, that nothing created something (an inherent paradox), or that a creator created everything seems rather similar on the scale of believability because they all run the exact same paradox that cannot be explained. Same paradox, just another name.

 

I agree to the second bit. Many atheists and non-atheists though are extremely intelligent thought provoking people at least.

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Atheists know or accept what is currently scientifically understood, or what has substantial scientific evidence behind it, believe is an inappropriate term, ie the theory of gravity, the reactions of chemicals, how particles interact with each other, and so on. Just because science has not yet found an explanation for the creation of the universe, doesn't mean it ever will, we once thought the earth was flat and diseases were transmitted by demonic fog.

 

What atheists believe doesn't really seem like a belief to me, it seems like the way things are.

 

My question to the theists is, what motivates them to believe in the writings of a centuries old religious text? The prudent thing to do is to disbelieve until evidence is provided, the foolish thing to do is believe and then wait (and hope) evidence proves you right.

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Atheists know or accept what is currently scientifically understood, or what has substantial scientific evidence behind it, believe is an inappropriate term, ie the theory of gravity, the reactions of chemicals, how particles interact with each other, and so on. Just because science has not yet found an explanation for the creation of the universe, doesn't mean it ever will, we once thought the earth was flat and diseases were transmitted by demonic fog.

 

What atheists believe doesn't really seem like a belief to me, it seems like the way things are.

 

My question to the theists is, what motivates them to believe in the writings of a centuries old religious text? The prudent thing to do is to disbelieve until evidence is provided, the foolish thing to do is believe and then wait (and hope) evidence proves you right.

 

I think your understanding of theism is off  :rolleyes:

 

Extremely off. I might respond differently to you if you cared to learn what a theist is. 

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So now explain the fundamental flaw in your previous post. 

There is no flaw, it doesn't matter what god or deity you believe in, your still putting your faith in something which has no scientific evidence to prove it's existence.

 

Also, debating hypotheticals is pointless, there might be a few people our there who call themselves theists/deists but belong to no religion, but the vast majority of theists belong to a religion.

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There is no flaw, it doesn't matter what god or deity you believe in, your still putting your faith in something which has no scientific evidence to prove it's existence.

 

Also, debating hypotheticals is pointless, there might be a few people our there who call themselves theists/deists but belong to no religion, but the vast majority of theists belong to a religion.

 

Definitely not just a "few." I would contend that there are many many theists (if not the majority) who call themselves Christian but don't strictly follow that one religion. The vast majority of North Americans call themselves Christians, but most don't attend Church on a regular basis or have even read the bible. Seems more like theism to me. They know almost naught about their religion, and tenets, but still believe in a creator. They may call themselves Christians but in reality they're theists. 

 

Atheists know or accept what is currently scientifically understood, or what has substantial scientific evidence behind it, believe is an inappropriate term, ie the theory of gravity, the reactions of chemicals, how particles interact with each other, and so on. Just because science has not yet found an explanation for the creation of the universe, doesn't mean it ever will, we once thought the earth was flat and diseases were transmitted by demonic fog.

 

My question to the theists is, what motivates them to believe in the writings of a centuries old religious text? The prudent thing to do is to disbelieve until evidence is provided, the foolish thing to do is believe and then wait (and hope) evidence proves you right.

 

The flaw is the implication that theists don't accept or know what is scientifically understood. The implication with your post that all theists believe in the writings of religious texts is also flawed. Your generalization of the vast majority of theists as followers of religious text is absurd. I would contend the vast majority of all people (in the "West" at least) believe in science and gravity and the reactions of chemicals and all that, and that a tiny minority do not.

 

What atheists believe doesn't really seem like a belief to me, it seems like the way things are.

 

Theists would say the same.

 

believe 

 

When I was saying believe it wasn't in that context or meant literally.

Edited by EliteCanada
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a)something came from nothing

 

b)something was always there

 

One of those is true.

or something came from someone who is everything

Caliph of The Caliphate of Arabia. Caliph of the Islamic State of Arabia. Principle of The Principality of Chechnya. Grand Emir of The Emirate of The Caucus. Emperor of the Empire of Persia. Sultan of The Sultanates of Turkey and The Crimea. Czar of the Tsardom of The Balkans. Archon of The Archonate of Greece. Supreme Consul of The Consulate of Italy. Shah of The Shahdom Of Khorason

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a)something came from nothing

 

b)something was always there

 

One of those is true.

 

Mind bogglingly so.

 

 

 

or something came from someone who is everything

 

That still falls under one of those categories.

Edited by EliteCanada
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Christians: believe in a Creator having made all.

 

Atheists: can't explain the creation of all (can't use The Big Bang Theory to counter this because it doesn't account for why the circumstances leading up to it occurred), but still believe the Universe was created (obviously since we're still here)... Somehow? Atheists still believe in a creation of the Universe, but just not from a Creator.

 

If I could be given clear reasonable facts and science that explained everything I would also likely be an atheist, but to me those two levels of "belief" (rhetorically speaking, not literally) are on the same level, so why not believe in a creator? Is it any more incredulous than believing in a non-creator? Imo no.

 

 

Many theists would say they don't actively go around believing in the existence of a Creator, but instead they just believe that there is a Creator (whether good, bad, or indifferent not being relevant), but that the thought never really enters their mind. 

 

You're still stuck on this belief thing. It's corrosive. You're right, as an atheist I have no explanation for the creation of the universe. This doesn't trouble me. I also don't "believe" in any religious sense in the creation of the universe, I know there's a universe, it's origins being completely incidental to my everyday life.  It doesn't lead me to invent a magic pixie that lives in the sky to fill in the gaps for me or put my faith in any of the pre imagined magic pixies. I just accept that I don't know and that's about it. My world view doesn't require any kind of belief at all.

 

If I was one of the inquisitive people of the world I might build a telescope of a particle accelerator and try to understand the universe and it's origins, but I'm not that inquisitive to be honest, not about the universe and it's origins. If I was though, what I definitely wouldn't do is is read a book that is nothing more than an account of iron age politics.

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