The Great Debate on Atheism

[Guest hawkeye]

The cosmological argument always struck me as an argument that was trying and looking to find proof of god and the Judeo-Christian worldview. The idea seems to be that everything has a cause and the universe must have one as well as a result. One criticism of this type of arguing is the fact that cause and effect can only happen if time exists. Before the universe, there was no time and cause and effect are meaningless as a result, there is also within the realm of science, things that can only be described as “spontaneous randomnessâ€.

 

the chain ends and begins with god.

The existence of god is beyond human comprehension.

We know that everything must begin and end but what it would be counter-intuitive in the chain of creation has no beginning or end

How do you know that applying your logic?

Edited March 11, 2016 by hawkeye

[Peter Quill]

Abu, you debate so !@#$ing badly I, a Catholic, voted for Atheism.

[Guest hawkeye]

Abu, you debate so !@#$ badly I, a Catholic, voted for Atheism.

Probably because he's likely an Atheist troll trying to make Muslims look bad.

Edited March 11, 2016 by hawkeye

[Abu Haddad]

What proof do you have of this though? With a religious debate the BOP is on the Theist to attempt to prove the existance of a deity. 

 

There you are limiting god's power again which destroys the fact that Allah would be god. 

 

We know that everything begins and ends with this chain. It does not mean anything that you keep throwing god into this. You are using illogical arguments.

 

With that said, could you solve the Omnipotence paradox?

The proof of god can be seen everywhere.

That voice in your head what is it. Your consciousness but what is it? The knowledge that you are aware of yourself. This cannot create itself and therefore must have been created. Think about that one.

That paradox. The god in this sense can always create a bigger stone and will always lift it but if he chose not to lift it then he won't. Its a paradox for a reason.

As i said it is counter intuitive to have a never ending chain of creation and therefore there must be an end where there is something not created.

God has absolute power but chooses not to exert it as when satan disobeyed and refused to bow to Adam Allah knew he would do so, Allah could have silenced him but chose not to do so. Therefore we must believe that god is mighty but chooses not to show his might

[Guest hawkeye]

The proof of god can be seen everywhere.

That voice in your head what is it. Your consciousness but what is it? The knowledge that you are aware of yourself. This cannot create itself and therefore must have been created. Think about that one.

That paradox. The god in this sense can always create a bigger stone and will always lift it but if he chose not to lift it then he won't. Its a paradox for a reason.

As i said it is counter intuitive to have a never ending chain of creation and therefore there must be an end where there is something not created.

God has absolute power but chooses not to exert it as when satan disobeyed and refused to bow to Adam Allah knew he would do so, Allah could have silenced him but chose not to do so. Therefore we must believe that god is mighty but chooses not to show his might

Firstly, Neuroscience. Thoughts in your head are the result of brain chemistry, you don't even have to know the deep science behind things, go and check out victims of brain damage.

 

Secondly, "MUST BE END TO CHAIN = ISLAM IS TRUE". Your logic is simply idiotic entirely and makes little sense.

[SoS]

Did you really expect a logical argument for the existence of god? From Abu?

 

The closest thing to a logical argument for the existence of God was involving some string theory shit. Because of the power paradox, you can prove god can't exist...in this universe. So, he must exist in another universe. Still, it comes down to faith. Which is belief in something that (doesn't exist) isn't proven.

 

That voice in your head is your "soul". It's a part of your body; an evolutionary adaptation. It helps us live as social animals. But, it demands answers - even to the unanswerable question. Its function is to regulate the meaning of your pre-emotions, basically the reason you seek "good" emotions. Some concept of universal moral authority is practically necessary for the soul to justify existence. We learned useful morals then we created the idea that those morals come from gods.

 

Human evolution. Especially, the evolution of our mind and our concept of god...prove that we created god. Everything that you think you know about God was a creation of man.

[Fox Fire]

The proof of god can be seen everywhere.

That voice in your head what is it. Your consciousness but what is it? The knowledge that you are aware of yourself. This cannot create itself and therefore must have been created. Think about that one.

That paradox. The god in this sense can always create a bigger stone and will always lift it but if he chose not to lift it then he won't. Its a paradox for a reason.

As i said it is counter intuitive to have a never ending chain of creation and therefore there must be an end where there is something not created.

God has absolute power but chooses not to exert it as when satan disobeyed and refused to bow to Adam Allah knew he would do so, Allah could have silenced him but chose not to do so. Therefore we must believe that god is mighty but chooses not to show his might

All life is, is an incredibly complex chemical reaction. Similar to literally everything else in the universe like the ground you're standing on. DNA is just a molecule. A chemical, which makes up all of the information we perceive as being "me". It's the same as dropping Mentos in a bottle of coke and watching it fizz up. That's why you're born in a womb and eventually die, because the chemical reaction cannot indefinitely sustain itself and thus changes its chemistry. Every thought that goes through your mind is a chemical, the very foundation of every living thing on earth is a natural chemical which formed completely naturally due to the geographical and climate conditions on Earth. 

It is a paradox, and that means it has no beginning or end. People search for a cause to things because we have a limited existence founded on cause and effect. However, as pointed out before, in order for anything to happen, there must be time. Nothing happens without time. Fundamentally impossible in every conceivable way. Outside the universe, there simply is no time. Time exists within the universe, thus your idea that there must be some beginning at a point where "beginning" is a completely non-existent concept entirely, is silly.

[Abu Haddad]

All life is, is an incredibly complex chemical reaction. Similar to literally everything else in the universe like the ground you're standing on. DNA is just a molecule. A chemical, which makes up all of the information we perceive as being "me". It's the same as dropping Mentos in a bottle of coke and watching it fizz up. That's why you're born in a womb and eventually die, because the chemical reaction cannot indefinitely sustain itself and thus changes its chemistry. Every thought that goes through your mind is a chemical, the very foundation of every living thing on earth is a natural chemical which formed completely naturally due to the geographical and climate conditions on Earth. 

It is a paradox, and that means it has no beginning or end. People search for a cause to things because we have a limited existence founded on cause and effect. However, as pointed out before, in order for anything to happen, there must be time. Nothing happens without time. Fundamentally impossible in every conceivable way. Outside the universe, there simply is no time. Time exists within the universe, thus your idea that there must be some beginning at a point where "beginning" is a completely non-existent concept entirely, is silly.

so tell me what is time?

and what causes these chemical reactions to occur?

Did you really expect a logical argument for the existence of god? From Abu?

 

The closest thing to a logical argument for the existence of God was involving some string theory shit. Because of the power paradox, you can prove god can't exist...in this universe. So, he must exist in another universe. Still, it comes down to faith. Which is belief in something that (doesn't exist) isn't proven.

 

That voice in your head is your "soul". It's a part of your body; an evolutionary adaptation. It helps us live as social animals. But, it demands answers - even to the unanswerable question. Its function is to regulate the meaning of your pre-emotions, basically the reason you seek "good" emotions. Some concept of universal moral authority is practically necessary for the soul to justify existence. We learned useful morals then we created the idea that those morals come from gods.

 

Human evolution. Especially, the evolution of our mind and our concept of god...prove that we created god. Everything that you think you know about God was a creation of man.

you have any proof of that.

[Fox Fire]

so tell me what is time?

and what causes these chemical reactions to occur?

you have any proof of that.

Time is a dimension, just like height, width and depth. And the chemical reaction is just like any other natural reaction we see on Earth. The Earth as a whole is a giant super organism that we are a part of. There is no scientific consensus as to how exactly life started, but we know it can be naturally formed, even in the vacuum of empty space, given the right materials. Life itself could have formed in space as microbes before coming to Earth. However, the conditions of Earth were perfectly suitable to form life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

[SoS]

you have any proof of that.

Proof of evolution? Or that man created god?

 

Evolution is as proven as gravity.

 

Name one thing about God that you didn't learn from a human. You can't, because everything about God was written by men. And, there's a clear evolution of religion linked to economic modes. Shamanism was created to serve hunters who lived among nature. Fast forward to Redeemer religions -Islam, Chritianity - were created by men tired of suffering under empires. So they invented salvation. And, the Redeemer religions built apon the Moral Code religions. And, the Moral Code religions built upon the Polytheistic religions. It's all very common sense.

[Abu Haddad]

Proof of evolution? Or that man created god?

 

Evolution is as proven as gravity.

 

Name one thing about God that you didn't learn from a human. You can't, because everything about God was written by men. And, there's a clear evolution of religion linked to economic modes. Shamanism was created to serve hunters who lived among nature. Fast forward to Redeemer religions -Islam, Chritianity - were created by men tired of suffering under empires. So they invented salvation. And, the Redeemer religions built apon the Moral Code religions. And, the Moral Code religions built upon the Polytheistic religions. It's all very common sense.

 

Judaism, Islam and christians-

the prophets of these religions were men high up in society.

Muhammad's family ruled quraysh, the most important tribe in Arabia at the time.

The Jews were ruled by prophets. David and Solomon led the jews.

Jesus's family were priests of temples.

 

And seriously, can we prove anything?

[Fox Fire]

Judaism, Islam and christians-

the prophets of these religions were men high up in society.

Muhammad's family ruled quraysh, the most important tribe in Arabia at the time.

The Jews were ruled by prophets. David and Solomon led the jews.

Jesus's family were priests of temples.

 

And seriously, can we prove anything?

Barrack Obama is the president of the US. Strongest nation on earth. Surely he is a prophet, or even a God. There is no other reasoning.

/sarcasm

[Abu Haddad]

Fox fire 

 

[Fox Fire]

Judaism, Islam and christians-

the prophets of these religions were men high up in society.

Muhammad's family ruled quraysh, the most important tribe in Arabia at the time.

The Jews were ruled by prophets. David and Solomon led the jews.

Jesus's family were priests of temples.

 

And seriously, can we prove anything?

Also, all three of those religions are full of stories about oppression, violence and war, with a happy ending for only true believers of whatever the true of the trio may be. At the end of the day, who's to say the almighty Vissarion is not the real deal, hmm? I mean sure, he seems like an insane creepy cult leader with a village of followers in the mountains, but maybe it's legit. He thinks so. And so do all the weird followers. 

 

Praise be to Vissarion!

 

[SoS]

Judaism, Islam and christians-

the prophets of these religions were men high up in society.

Muhammad's family ruled quraysh, the most important tribe in Arabia at the time.

The Jews were ruled by prophets. David and Solomon led the jews.

Jesus's family were priests of temples.

 

And seriously, can we prove anything?

I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make. But, you kinda make my point that (educated) men invent religion.

 

We can prove certain things. Like God doesn't build bridges and he doesn't write books. Men write books.

[Moreau]

I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make. But, you kinda make my point that (educated) men invent religion.

 

We can prove certain things. Like God doesn't build bridges and he doesn't write books. Men write books.

Except Prophet Muhammad (saw) was illiterate and if you look at the Quran it is a literary & linguistic miracle.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Moreau III

[K W Jackson]

Except Prophet Muhammad (saw) was illiterate and if you look at the Quran it is a literary & linguistic miracle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

 

also 

 

evidence? 

[Moreau]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

What does this have to do with anything?

 

also

 

evidence?

Small sample....

[Fox Fire]

What does this have to do with anything?

 

 

Small sample....

Yeah, Arabic is a cool language but this isn't a miracle by any means. 

[SoS]

Except Prophet Muhammad (saw) was illiterate and if you look at the Quran it is a literary & linguistic miracle.

I don't necessarily accept that he was illiterate, but so what if he was? How does that suggest he didn't invent the book? Ever hear of dictation?

 

These miracle books have fallacies and contradictions. That's not a miracle. That's not from god. That's from man.

 

And what did God do...create all these different miracle books and religions? Or, are some of the claims of divine inspiration bullshit? Hmm, maybe they're all bullshit.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Judaism, Islam and christians-

the prophets of these religions were men high up in society.

Muhammad's family ruled quraysh, the most important tribe in Arabia at the time.

The Jews were ruled by prophets. David and Solomon led the jews.

Jesus's family were priests of temples.

 

And seriously, can we prove anything?

Actually most of the Tanakh Prophets were not priests nor high ranking officials. When they were called out by the Creator these men were nothing more than simple, humble people who were devout, but not powerful politically, financially or socially.

[Abu Haddad]

Actually most of the Tanakh Prophets were not priests nor high ranking officials. When they were called out by the Creator these men were nothing more than simple, humble people who were devout, but not powerful politically, financially or socially.

They were humble but Solomon was king of the Israel

[SoS]

Solomon was a monster.

[EliteCanada]

All life is, is an incredibly complex chemical reaction. Similar to literally everything else in the universe like the ground you're standing on. DNA is just a molecule. A chemical, which makes up all of the information we perceive as being "me". It's the same as dropping Mentos in a bottle of coke and watching it fizz up. That's why you're born in a womb and eventually die, because the chemical reaction cannot indefinitely sustain itself and thus changes its chemistry. 

 

W/o reading six pages worth of comments I'm just going to quickly state my opinion and view on this matter by specifically referring to this post. 

 

That reasoning is very similar to theism. In theism you believe there is a creator and in atheism you believe there is no creator. If you believe there is no creator you literally believe that nothing has created something (molecules/stars/chemicals/what have you); which kick-started the big bang and all life as we know it. This is an inherent paradox, for how can nothing create something? 

 

TLDR: It can't. Hence the meaning of the word nothing.

 

Unless you ofc believe matter has just always been here which is an equally incredulous idea imo. How could something always just have been here "forever" (the idea of there always just being things here forever is also a paradox and in order to believe in this it is equivalent to theist beliefs of a creator). Then again believing in theism runs the same inherent paradox. Besides how do you explain those things science cannot account for as an atheist? Do you perhaps tell yourself that science will account for it all eventually, or just because science doesn't have an explanation it doesn't mean there isn't one too complex for us to understand? Are these not equal to theism beliefs of there being a creator (in the sense both are w/o concrete proof)? 

 

TLDR: Both, theism and atheism, are beliefs with no "concrete" evidence  Theists simply believe a creator is responsible w/o tangible (arguably; and when I say arguably I mean believers of religions will believe there is tangible proof while others will not) and atheists believe that nothing created everything (???). Both run similarly strong beliefs with "no" evidence to support their claims. 

 

I have no idea if I made myself clear here or if this is just incoherent ramblings of a mad man 

 

TLDR: Theism and atheism run equally strong beliefs with no "facts" supporting their stance.

Edited April 2, 2016 by EliteCanada

[SoS]

Yeah, atheism is just the latest religion.

 

The problem of something from nothing persists with or without god. God adds further impossiblity to the universe.