nationalism?

[Fox Fire]

No FF. You havent. When I pinned you down you tried to redirect into an ideological debate. Admit that you were wrong and we can coninue. Otherwise shut up and sit down.

Umno. Ideological? Yes. Ideology of the state itself? Yes. Continue. Your problem is that you're focusing on genocide. 

Are Israelis putting people in gas chambers and committing mass industrialized murder? No. Are they interning, imprisoning and blatantly murdering their own minority population while stealing land under a  nationalist supremacist ideology? Yes.

Zionism is Jewish Nazism. Israel is the Jewish Nazi Germany. Do you get what I'm saying yet?

The killing and atrocities may not be on the same scale, but it's still the same thing. Ethnic cleansing was part of the Zionist goal from its infancy. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Fox Fire

[LordRahl2]

Yes. Continue.

[Fox Fire]

Umno. Ideological? Yes. Ideology of the state itself? Yes. Continue. Your problem is that you're focusing on genocide. 

Are Israelis putting people in gas chambers and committing mass industrialized murder? No. Are they interning, imprisoning and blatantly murdering their own minority population while stealing land under a  nationalist supremacist ideology? Yes.

Zionism is Jewish Nazism. Israel is the Jewish Nazi Germany. Do you get what I'm saying yet?

The killing and atrocities may not be on the same scale, but it's still the same thing. Ethnic cleansing was part of the Zionist goal from its infancy. 

^

[Clarke]

I don't know what we're even talking about, you don't like the people in power and you wouldn't like it if the people with no power had power. 

The message I'm trying to get across and how I feel about it is that it is fine the way it is and a lot better than any alternatives. 

The world might have being better off if Europe kept colonizing those regions around Europe. 

[Arthur James]

actually they are right to return as there are israelites there, always, only not under their way of rules.

there is nothing wrong of having a nationalism as every nation should have one instead of none...despite there are always positive and negative outcome to others or "mixed" people.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Arthur James

[LordRahl2]

Umno. Ideological? Yes. Ideology of the state itself? Yes. Continue. Your problem is that you're focusing on genocide. 

Are Israelis putting people in gas chambers and committing mass industrialized murder? No. Are they interning, imprisoning and blatantly murdering their own minority population while stealing land under a  nationalist supremacist ideology? Yes.

Zionism is Jewish Nazism. Israel is the Jewish Nazi Germany. Do you get what I'm saying yet?

The killing and atrocities may not be on the same scale, but it's still the same thing. Ethnic cleansing was part of the Zionist goal from its infancy. 

 

So lets loop around to some things that I am "fascinated" with.  I am fascinated, as you so eloquently say, with what Nazi Germany actually fracking did.  Nazi Germany is best know for two things: invading it neighbors with the intent of gaining and holding their land and committing genocide on an industrial scale.

So you admit that Israel does not do the latter and is therefore NOT behaving like Nazi Germany.

Again, since you obviously do not seem willing to accept this, Genocide =/= ethnic cleansing.  This is simply a fact by definition.  (Invalidating your second to last sentence in the quoted post.)

Israel does hold some territory that it gained after being attacked -which you may not appreciate as a difference but it is one none the less.  Israel could invade its neighbors and hold their land if they desired to (they are far more powerful than their neighbors).  They chose not to.

 

So as far as their ideological bent, which was not your original argument that we have dis-proven together, does whatever ideology Israelis hold translate into action?  Not as you define it.  If Israel was acting on the ideology you claim that they hold then the State would be waging wars of aggression and committing genocide.  So we are left with a few possibilities.  Israel is either not Zionist or Zionism is not ideologically the same as Nazism.  Whichever one of these is correct we can effectively and logically deduce, even given your moving argumentative goalposts, that Israel is not Nazi Germany.

Edited February 28, 2016 by LordRahl2

[Abu Haddad]

Establishing relationship or grouping together on something other than Islam is clearly forbidden, this is stated in many ahadith: The Prophet Muhammad (saw) has narrated: â€œUndoubtedly Allah (swt) has removed from you the pride and arrogance of the time of Jahilliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of the ancestors. Now people are only of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam (as) and Adam (as) was from clay. People should give up their pride in nations because that is a Coal from the Coals of Hell-Fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than the lowly beetle which pushes itself through Khus (dung)†The Messenger of Allah (saw) said,“He who calls for (nationalism, tribalism or ancestors)’assabiyah’ is as if he bit his father’s genital†(Mishkat al-Masabih) Also another hadith states â€œHe is not one of us who calls for ‘assabiyah’-nationalism, or who fights for ‘assabiyah’ or dies for ‘assabiyah’.†(Abu-Daud)

[Stujenske]

The world might have being better off if Europe kept colonizing those regions around Europe. 

So... why do you think this?

[Dimitri Valko]

As long as they aren't narcissistic about it, I guess... And as long as they aren't patriotic to a nation that's bloody evil.

[Miles Dyson]

Keep believing that but what you think doesn't matter much. I talked of a scenerio where your policy was undertaken, no state intervention but the door open to these brigades you want. That is putting what you want in action... and the result would be exactly like I said. Your stance, being a compromising position means the media will spin it to the position they want which is war war war. 

You can believe yourself to be untouched all you like, but if we did as you wanted your method would be a huge failure hardly all that different from the current. Only complete rejection gives you the solution.

 

??? Did you just take my giving you the media angle as me believing it? Please read it again. I was merely telling you how easy it is to portray even fanatics as fighters for all that is good in the world. 

Again, I'm merely applying your belief across the board for everybody. You may consider yourself "smart" enough to not be fooled but what about everybody else? You think your compromising position will convince anybody? "But they are good people" they'll tell you. Only mass complete rejection can foil the plots of the warmongers. 

 

You say it like it's some bad thing I'm keeping secret or something. 

 

"Policy" = state intervention; no matter what form it takes. Thats where you're mistaking my position. I'm not advocating any kind of policy, just voluntary action if necessary; something that should only be carried out under extreme circumstances. I agree, some so-called "freedom fighters" are fanatical; but those are not the type of freedom fighters I am talking about. How could you possibly "apply my beliefs across the board" when you don't even know what my beliefs are? I reiterate, you're making a straw man argument. You have this image in your head of "what I believe", which is not founded in anything that I have actually said. Do you understand? You don't know what I believe, so stop assuming that you do.

[Rozalia]

"Policy" = state intervention; no matter what form it takes. Thats where you're mistaking my position. I'm not advocating any kind of policy, just voluntary action if necessary; something that should only be carried out under extreme circumstances. I agree, some so-called "freedom fighters" are fanatical; but those are not the type of freedom fighters I am talking about. How could you possibly "apply my beliefs across the board" when you don't even know what my beliefs are? I reiterate, you're making a straw man argument. You have this image in your head of "what I believe", which is not founded in anything that I have actually said. Do you understand? You don't know what I believe, so stop assuming that you do.

Uh... you told me what you believe quite clearly so why would I need to assume it? As I said, I applied your belief in these Brigades of yours across the board which means I hypothetically thought for a second, "what if everyone thought about these Brigades being a thing". So basically enough people believing what you do so it may be a reality. 

 

You're the one throwing fists at imaginary things though perhaps I didn't make myself fully clear. 

[Spite]

I'm loathe to get pulled into an Israel thread but...

 

Firstly, Zionism is a broad church. Even when the first zionists in the Russian Empire started preaching, there were many sects. Religious zionists, socialist zionists, practical zionism amongst them. Some of these wished to establish a Jewish religious state, some a national state, some just wanted an autonomous region of the ottoman empire, some just wanted to live in Palestine whoever the ruler was.

 

Secondly, let's look at the context in which zionism was shaped. As already discussed, by 1918 there were already over 70k Jews in Palestine. Between 1918 and 1945 that population grew tenfold. 80% of those immigrants were poor Jews from eastern Europe, specifically Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Russia and the Ukraine.

 

Over this period there was a gradual pivot from an imperial mindset to a national mindset globally. The imperial mindset allows the idea that many nations live under one empire. The national mindset focused on the idea of a single nation and a single state. This change squeezed out the Jews and other ethnic minority groups all across Europe.

 

The zionist mindset itself became more nationalist in response, fitting in with the zeitgeist of the time. More pressure was put on both Jewish leaders in Palestine and leaders in the West to recognise nation states.

 

When the middle east was carved up, religious and ethnic minorities were given special preference for nationhood. An Alawite state was proposed and rejected. Lebanon was created specifically to prevent Christian and Shia minorities being swamped by the Syrian Sunni majority. Israel was proposed as a state where the border was drawn around the areas with a Jewish majority population.

 

Although the Jews were relatively new to the region, this idea of a Jewish state which closely held to the areas only with Jewish majorities made sense. In 1948 the borders of Israel contained 92.4% Jews, the rest were Arabs of various religions.

 

The right to self determination of populations is something enshrined in international law. In 1948 the Palestine area had been under occupation by the British, and prior to that the Ottomans, for hundreds of years. When consideration was given to which areas should become which states, the will of the people living there was taken into account. A single state with a mixed Jewish and Arab population was something both the Jews and Arabs did not want. So a two state solution was created.

 

The Arabs then invaded Israel and caused deep distrust between the two groups which continues to this day.

 

Granted this is a simplified explanation, but it's pure bollocks to say that Israel exists as a result of a conspiracy. It exists as a result of a partition of a much wider area which took into account the national identity of the peoples who lived there.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

The only true form of nationalism or patriotism is socialism, because only under socialism is the economy owned by all countrymen collectively and equally. Nationalism in a state where the economy is owned by a tiny class of capitalists who exploit the working people to enrich themselves, is a sad facade.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[Abu Haddad]

anything that united men other than islam is haraam

[Rozalia]

The only true form of nationalism or patriotism is socialism, because only under socialism is the economy owned by all countrymen collectively and equally. Nationalism in a state where the economy is owned by a tiny class of capitalists who exploit the working people to enrich themselves, is a sad facade.

 

Does this Socialism come with high immigration? Seems to be a cornerstone of Socialism these days. 

 

Beyond that why not go for Communism if that is what you want? Socialism is like a half way point that instead of heading towards Communism... goes in reverse back to Conservatism. Nationalism is the true form of nationalism, not socialism don't be ridiculous. Though obviously you can be both, to be Nationalist means to put your people above all others. Most Socialists do not do this.

 

anything that united men other than islam is haraam

 

So why were you saying before you'd like nationalism?

 

Lets face facts though, if you really wanted to you could interpret it so Nationalism isn't a bad thing in Islam, there is no exact words of "Nationalism is banned yo" in there as far as I know, heck Nationalism wasn't even a thing in those times. Additionally... everyone is divided into different states so everyone is breaking the whole "be united" thing anyway.

 

Anyway rejecting it only serves the interests of the religious leaders, especially those detestable Saudis as it means they have great power over people. It's why they fear Nationalism, for the belief in your great country can nullify the fear of god entirely. 

[Fox Fire]

I don't know what we're even talking about, you don't like the people in power and you wouldn't like it if the people with no power had power. 

The message I'm trying to get across and how I feel about it is that it is fine the way it is and a lot better than any alternatives. 

The world might have being better off if Europe kept colonizing those regions around Europe. 

Mkay...

 

 

actually they are right to return as there are israelites there, always, only not under their way of rules.

there is nothing wrong of having a nationalism as every nation should have one instead of none...despite there are always positive and negative outcome to others or "mixed" people.

The Kingdom of Israel is not modern Israel. The two are not even related. That's like saying Turkey should be given to Russia or Greece. Trying to revert nations and cultures in given areas to ancient standards is something Hitler tried too. It was a stupid idea and it didn't work. Things from thousands of years ago are from thousands of years ago. 

[Fox Fire]

So lets loop around to some things that I am "fascinated" with.  I am fascinated, as you so eloquently say, with what Nazi Germany actually fracking did.  Nazi Germany is best know for two things: invading it neighbors with the intent of gaining and holding their land and committing genocide on an industrial scale.

So you admit that Israel does not do the latter and is therefore NOT behaving like Nazi Germany.

Again, since you obviously do not seem willing to accept this, Genocide =/= ethnic cleansing.  This is simply a fact by definition.  (Invalidating your second to last sentence in the quoted post.)

Israel does hold some territory that it gained after being attacked -which you may not appreciate as a difference but it is one none the less.  Israel could invade its neighbors and hold their land if they desired to (they are far more powerful than their neighbors).  They chose not to.

 

So as far as their ideological bent, which was not your original argument that we have dis-proven together, does whatever ideology Israelis hold translate into action?  Not as you define it.  If Israel was acting on the ideology you claim that they hold then the State would be waging wars of aggression and committing genocide.  So we are left with a few possibilities.  Israel is either not Zionist or Zionism is not ideologically the same as Nazism.  Whichever one of these is correct we can effectively and logically deduce, even given your moving argumentative goalposts, that Israel is not Nazi Germany.

I mean it's the same thing as in it's state sanctioned mass murder. 

Israel is too busy invading itself to invade anyone else. 

Nope. Again, you're defining Nazism based on their acts of genocide. Genocide was never a core part of Nazi ideology. Neither was taking over Europe. Hitler didn't rally the support of millions by saying "Let's take over the world and murder millions of people". More like "We must preserve our culture and people. We deserve X, Y and Z because our people are inherently better". 

Zionism: "We must preserve our culture and people. Our people deserve this because God said we were chosen."

 

 

I'm loathe to get pulled into an Israel thread but...

 

Firstly, Zionism is a broad church. Even when the first zionists in the Russian Empire started preaching, there were many sects. Religious zionists, socialist zionists, practical zionism amongst them. Some of these wished to establish a Jewish religious state, some a national state, some just wanted an autonomous region of the ottoman empire, some just wanted to live in Palestine whoever the ruler was.

 

Secondly, let's look at the context in which zionism was shaped. As already discussed, by 1918 there were already over 70k Jews in Palestine. Between 1918 and 1945 that population grew tenfold. 80% of those immigrants were poor Jews from eastern Europe, specifically Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Russia and the Ukraine.

 

Over this period there was a gradual pivot from an imperial mindset to a national mindset globally. The imperial mindset allows the idea that many nations live under one empire. The national mindset focused on the idea of a single nation and a single state. This change squeezed out the Jews and other ethnic minority groups all across Europe.

 

The zionist mindset itself became more nationalist in response, fitting in with the zeitgeist of the time. More pressure was put on both Jewish leaders in Palestine and leaders in the West to recognise nation states.

 

When the middle east was carved up, religious and ethnic minorities were given special preference for nationhood. An Alawite state was proposed and rejected. Lebanon was created specifically to prevent Christian and Shia minorities being swamped by the Syrian Sunni majority. Israel was proposed as a state where the border was drawn around the areas with a Jewish majority population.

 

Although the Jews were relatively new to the region, this idea of a Jewish state which closely held to the areas only with Jewish majorities made sense. In 1948 the borders of Israel contained 92.4% Jews, the rest were Arabs of various religions.

 

The right to self determination of populations is something enshrined in international law. In 1948 the Palestine area had been under occupation by the British, and prior to that the Ottomans, for hundreds of years. When consideration was given to which areas should become which states, the will of the people living there was taken into account. A single state with a mixed Jewish and Arab population was something both the Jews and Arabs did not want. So a two state solution was created.

 

The Arabs then invaded Israel and caused deep distrust between the two groups which continues to this day.

 

Granted this is a simplified explanation, but it's pure bollocks to say that Israel exists as a result of a conspiracy. It exists as a result of a partition of a much wider area which took into account the national identity of the peoples who lived there.

Is that why Palestine was promised to both sides?

"The will of the people was taken into account"

Of course it was. After a shit ton of Jews came in and became the majority. That was the whole plan of Balfour. 

[Ivan Moldavi]

Nationalism is great. The lack of pride in the nation is the reason why America is falling. If we do not regain our sense of purpose and identity we will be lost and overrun by illegal aliens.

[Lord of Puns]

I mean it's the same thing as in it's state sanctioned mass murder. 

Israel is too busy invading itself to invade anyone else. 

Nope. Again, you're defining Nazism based on their acts of genocide. Genocide was never a core part of Nazi ideology. Neither was taking over Europe. Hitler didn't rally the support of millions by saying "Let's take over the world and murder millions of people". More like "We must preserve our culture and people. We deserve X, Y and Z because our people are inherently better". 

Zionism: "We must preserve our culture and people. Our people deserve this because God said we were chosen."

 

 

Is that why Palestine was promised to both sides?

"The will of the people was taken into account"

Of course it was. After a shit ton of Jews came in and became the majority. That was the whole plan of Balfour. 

 

This is so full of shit it's confusing. Number one. Zionism is the ideology that Jews are entitled to a homeland. It IS NOT  the idea that Jews are inherently better due to their belief that they are the chosen people. Nazism was the belief that Germans were the perfect people, not that they deserved a home state, but that they should not be denied anything and that everything going wrong was not any German's fault.

 

Balfour was a good idea, On paper. In which land that was taken with the fall of the Ottoman Empire and was at the time very sparsely inhabited would go to people who just got out of persecution. Biblical claims are bullshit, however, both have modern claims to the region. Are the palestinian's claims any more deserving than the Israelis or vice versa? No. The Palestinians today are hardly at all from the area they claim. In fact, a vast majority of the people living there previously belonged/were citizens of a surrounding state. The Israelis have no justifiable claim over the disputed land either. 

 

Is one population better than the other/more humanitarian? No. Both sides have become radicalized because of state-sponsored terrorism and over blown media coverage. Constant worry of terrorist attacks from Gaza terrify the Israelis into supporting anything National, which is why Likud is in power. Constant oppression by the Likud government on the Palestinians promote more attacks on the Israelis. 

 

In the end, the small parties (Likud and Hamas) that promote the subjugation/destruction of either side propel the citizens of both lands into believing what their government is doing is justified. 

 

Jews are not Terrorists, Israelis are not Terrorists, Palestinians are not Terrorists, Muslims are not Terrorists.

 

Hamas, and Likud are terrorists. Fermenting fear in both populations in order to see one side over power the other.

[Fox Fire]

This is so full of shit it's confusing. Number one. Zionism is the ideology that Jews are entitled to a homeland. It IS NOT  the idea that Jews are inherently better due to their belief that they are the chosen people. Nazism was the belief that Germans were the perfect people, not that they deserved a home state, but that they should not be denied anything and that everything going wrong was not any German's fault.

 

Balfour was a good idea, On paper. In which land that was taken with the fall of the Ottoman Empire and was at the time very sparsely inhabited would go to people who just got out of persecution. Biblical claims are bullshit, however, both have modern claims to the region. Are the palestinian's claims any more deserving than the Israelis or vice versa? No. The Palestinians today are hardly at all from the area they claim. In fact, a vast majority of the people living there previously belonged/were citizens of a surrounding state. The Israelis have no justifiable claim over the disputed land either. 

 

Is one population better than the other/more humanitarian? No. Both sides have become radicalized because of state-sponsored terrorism and over blown media coverage. Constant worry of terrorist attacks from Gaza terrify the Israelis into supporting anything National, which is why Likud is in power. Constant oppression by the Likud government on the Palestinians promote more attacks on the Israelis. 

 

In the end, the small parties (Likud and Hamas) that promote the subjugation/destruction of either side propel the citizens of both lands into believing what their government is doing is justified. 

 

Jews are not Terrorists, Israelis are not Terrorists, Palestinians are not Terrorists, Muslims are not Terrorists.

 

Hamas, and Likud are terrorists. Fermenting fear in both populations in order to see one side over power the other.

I can mostly agree. Although Abrahamic religions all tell their people they are inherently special. That their version of God is what is just. Zionism is inherently tied to the Jewish religion, making the state the same way. A religious nationalism is a terrible idea and prone to conflict. Both sides have valid claim to the area, but I don't think either side has a claim in their current non-secular and divided forms. I'm not supporting the Palestinian side other than the fact that they are the ones who get massacred while everyone watches. Gaza is a terrible situation and Israel turning it into a blocked off cage "fish in a barrel" situation is plain a simply !@#$ed up. Yeah, it's a complex situation, but it's really just indiscriminate warfare. 

It's ridiculously stupid and has been going on far too long. This is why nationalism is stupid. Understandable, but stupid.

[Captain_Vietnam]

I can mostly agree. Although Abrahamic religions all tell their people they are inherently special. That their version of God is what is just. Zionism is inherently tied to the Jewish religion, making the state the same way. A religious nationalism is a terrible idea and prone to conflict. Both sides have valid claim to the area, but I don't think either side has a claim in their current non-secular and divided forms. I'm not supporting the Palestinian side other than the fact that they are the ones who get massacred while everyone watches. Gaza is a terrible situation and Israel turning it into a blocked off cage "fish in a barrel" situation is plain a simply !@#$ed up. Yeah, it's a complex situation, but it's really just indiscriminate warfare. 

It's ridiculously stupid and has been going on far too long. This is why nationalism is stupid. Understandable, but stupid.

liberals like you will destroy america

 

america not value nationalism and is falling apart

 

trump needs to get in to fix it

[Lord of Puns]

I can mostly agree. Although Abrahamic religions all tell their people they are inherently special. That their version of God is what is just. Zionism is inherently tied to the Jewish religion, making the state the same way. A religious nationalism is a terrible idea and prone to conflict. Both sides have valid claim to the area, but I don't think either side has a claim in their current non-secular and divided forms. I'm not supporting the Palestinian side other than the fact that they are the ones who get massacred while everyone watches. Gaza is a terrible situation and Israel turning it into a blocked off cage "fish in a barrel" situation is plain a simply !@#$ed up. Yeah, it's a complex situation, but it's really just indiscriminate warfare. 

It's ridiculously stupid and has been going on far too long. This is why nationalism is stupid. Understandable, but stupid.

 

No. Nono. No this is wrong. Zionism may be tied to the religion, but it is NOT the reason for Israel's state occupation. You need to stop tying the religion to the state. Seriously. People that see Israel and Judaism as one begin to hate Jews for that reason.

 

Likud and Netanyahu are extremists, not regular Jews. And I'd very very loosely define the Likud party as full of 'Jews'. Don't blame the religion for the states actions. 

[LordRahl2]

I mean it's the same thing as in it's state sanctioned mass murder.

No. Genocide is genocide. As in its the same thing as genocide. Now since you are hinting around an actual definition of genocide I will ask you to attempt to prove that Israel sanctions "mass murder".

Israel is too busy invading itself to invade anyone else.

No, not in the slightest. Israel has overwhelming regional strength and is far from "too busy" with internal security.

Nope. Again, you're defining Nazism based on their acts of genocide. Genocide was never a core part of Nazi ideology. Neither was taking over Europe. Hitler didn't rally the support of millions by saying "Let's take over the world and murder millions of people". More like "We must preserve our culture and people. We deserve X, Y and Z because our people are inherently better".

 

Zionism: "We must preserve our culture and people. Our people deserve this because God said we were chosen."

No. I am defining Nazi Germany, which was a State not an ideology, based on its genocidal actions. I give less than 2 shits about what Hitler said. I care what he did. This is important because I can compare it to what Israel does and note that they are not the same.

This allows me to easily and without any qualms conclude that this statement is false:

"Israel is the Jewish equivalent of Nazi Germany." -FoxFire

 

So you have STILL yet to defend your claim. Provide evidence that that actions of the State of Israel are equivalent to the State of Nazi Germany.

Edited March 3, 2016 by LordRahl2

[johnl023]

Both Islam and Judaism have their extremists. They also both have moderates.  Only problem: sometimes it's the extremists eith the most influence, such as the Wahhabis in Saudi and some parts of the Zionist movement.

Edited March 3, 2016 by johnl023

[SoS]

Nationalism is great. The lack of pride in the nation is the reason why America is falling. If we do not regain our sense of purpose and identity we will be lost and overrun by illegal aliens.

Provide one piece of evidence that America is falling.