isreal vs isis?

[Franz Von Dietrich]

Jewish doesn't automatically make them Zionist >.>.

[Abu Haddad]

Jewish doesn't automatically make them Zionist >.>.

I know but still it is scary to think Jews control the world

[Jack Mcfloyd]

I know but still it is scary to think Jews control the world

 

wow i know theres like a lot of jewish CEO and politicians and world leaders

[Moreau]

The Jordanian pilot killed by ISIS was Sunni.

He deserved it,how many people died from his bombed he dropped do you think?

[LordRahl2]

He deserved it,how many people died from his bombed he dropped do you think?

 

He was Jordanian sooooo, zero?

[Lord of Puns]

This thread has moved from anti-Zionist to anti-Semitic.

 

If you cannot tell the difference between the two, or cannot accept someone because of their faith I suggest you log off and educate yourself.

[Stujenske]

This thread has moved from anti-Zionist to anti-Semitic.

 

If you cannot tell the difference between the two, or cannot accept someone because of their faith I suggest you log off and educate yourself.

Always gonna play the anti-Semite card aren't ya, hmm?

[Rozalia]

Absurd. Israel was pretty much the Jewish homeland and all Jews religious and cultural practices are involved around returning to Israel. The Zionist movement didn't plan an armed conflict by choice, they actually looked to promote Israel as a legitimate, world-recognized state and sought to do that through legal means. You do realize Jewish immigration to nowadays Israel started before WW1 with Ottoman participation, as well as British participation after WW1. The British mandate didn't just say 'ah lets mess with Arabs and promote a Jewish state here!', it was advanced through 20 years of the Zionist movement trying to arrange a recognized & legitimate country. 

 

Saying this claim is 'nonsense' is the real nonsense. 

 

This is not to say that Palestinians don't have a right to Israel, they do. The point is that Israel accepted to live peacefully with common shared borders whereas Palestinians decided to wage war against Israel, which resulted in the current conflict.

 

The only reason the "zionist element" is creepy for you is because you're ignorant on what Zionism is, its history and its shared goals with the US.

 

ISIS claim via the caliphates that Spain (among many other places including Israel) belongs to them. Logically if your old or to be more precise ancient claim is legitimate (lol at immigration before WW1 meaning anything) than so is theirs, more so in fact considering it's much newer. Most claims are generally old nonsense, no shame in that.

 

No I know what Zionism is about and no there is no shared nothing, it's goal is quite rightly the advancement of their own nation and people. You can add wishy washy elements to it if you like such as "DEMOCRACY!" and the like, but they're all relatively meaningless compared to the main point I mentioned. Were the Israelis all American and Israel was legitimately simply their colony then I could understand, but having "shared goals" with a foreign country full of foreigners that involves supplying them "endless" cash while diplomatically doing their bidding is just weird and only gives fuel to all those "Jews rule the world" types.

 

This thread has moved from anti-Zionist to anti-Semitic.

 

If you cannot tell the difference between the two, or cannot accept someone because of their faith I suggest you log off and educate yourself.

 

Nonsense, it's done no such thing. Comment's like Abu's are unhelpful but he doesn't drive the conversation and I was the one who mentioned Zionism. 

 

Jewish doesn't automatically make them Zionist >.>.

 

Quite right, best to always remember that. Though if they mention they are Zionists (while belonging to another nation and having no intention of going to Israel) then that peeves me a bit, as "pledging allegiance" to a foreign country is just wrong and they should learn to have better priorities (and if any one has read my comments on here they know I'm not just talking about Jews). I suppose that'd be easily labeled "Antisemitism" due to the whole "unloyal Jew" thing but I have no qualms with saying it, especially as those who act quite rightly are said to be ridiculously "self-hating Jews" like being Jewish trumps nationality (it doesn't). I say the same thing about many Muslims who hold higher loyalties to their religion and even more absurdly their parent's country (Pakistan and such) and that doesn't have the same amount of heat attached to it, so I'd be a hypocrite if I gave Jews a pass on the matter.

[Lord of Puns]

Always gonna play the anti-Semite card aren't ya, hmm?

 

Calling out racism/xenophobia isn't a card. I'm not sure where your mind crosses where making such comments are appropriate in any manner.

 

Nonsense, it's done no such thing. Comment's like Abu's are unhelpful but he doesn't drive the conversation and I was the one who mentioned Zionism. 

 

This conversation has mostly been about Zionism whether or not it's name was inferred. Literally just read the last page. 

 

 Quite right, best to always remember that. Though if they mention they are Zionists (while belonging to another nation and having no intention of going to Israel) then that peeves me a bit, as "pledging allegiance" to a foreign country is just wrong and they should learn to have better priorities (and if any one has read my comments on here they know I'm not just talking about Jews). I suppose that'd be easily labeled "Antisemitism" due to the whole "unloyal Jew" thing but I have no qualms with saying it, especially as those who act quite rightly are said to be ridiculously "self-hating Jews" like being Jewish trumps nationality (it doesn't). I say the same thing about many Muslims who hold higher loyalties to their religion and even more absurdly their parent's country (Pakistan and such) and that doesn't have the same amount of heat attached to it, so I'd be a hypocrite if I gave Jews a pass on the matter.

 

The two aren't entirely comparable. Israel to Jews is the Vatican to Catholics. While The Vatican does not interact anywhere nearly as high on the international politics level, it is the state that epitomizes their religion essentially. While Pakistan was initially created as a safe place for Muslims to worship, it does not hold as much religious sovereignty as Mecca would (if it were a country). So in such a way, Jews all over the world are conflicted as to supporting Israel, as it is in most's biblical standards their "homeland". While many Jews may not agree with Israeli politics, they may associate themselves as Zionists out of the wish to support an openly Jewish state. 

 

So it's not really a matter of nationality, any catholic could tell you that they openly support the Vatican's existence. Similarly most Jews could tell you they support Israel's existence, mainly because it is the state embodiment of their beliefs.

 

And again, being anti-zionist does not equate to being anti-semitic. The more the two are associated, the more people begin to detest Jews out of the association with Israel and it's politics.

[Redael]

Who has more nukes and allies with nukes, Israel, they win.

[aaaaddd22]

 

ISIS claim via the caliphates that Spain (among many other places including Israel) belongs to them. Logically if your old or to be more precise ancient claim is legitimate (lol at immigration before WW1 meaning anything) than so is theirs, more so in fact considering it's much newer. Most claims are generally old nonsense, no shame in that.

 

No I know what Zionism is about and no there is no shared nothing, it's goal is quite rightly the advancement of their own nation and people. You can add wishy washy elements to it if you like such as "DEMOCRACY!" and the like, but they're all relatively meaningless compared to the main point I mentioned. Were the Israelis all American and Israel was legitimately simply their colony then I could understand, but having "shared goals" with a foreign country full of foreigners that involves supplying them "endless" cash while diplomatically doing their bidding is just weird and only gives fuel to all those "Jews rule the world" types.

 

 

Nonsense, it's done no such thing. Comment's like Abu's are unhelpful but he doesn't drive the conversation and I was the one who mentioned Zionism. 

 

 

Quite right, best to always remember that. Though if they mention they are Zionists (while belonging to another nation and having no intention of going to Israel) then that peeves me a bit, as "pledging allegiance" to a foreign country is just wrong and they should learn to have better priorities (and if any one has read my comments on here they know I'm not just talking about Jews). I suppose that'd be easily labeled "Antisemitism" due to the whole "unloyal Jew" thing but I have no qualms with saying it, especially as those who act quite rightly are said to be ridiculously "self-hating Jews" like being Jewish trumps nationality (it doesn't). I say the same thing about many Muslims who hold higher loyalties to their religion and even more absurdly their parent's country (Pakistan and such) and that doesn't have the same amount of heat attached to it, so I'd be a hypocrite if I gave Jews a pass on the matter.

"ISIS claim via the caliphates that Spain (among many other places including Israel) belongs to them. Logically if your old or to be more precise ancient claim is legitimate (lol at immigration before WW1 meaning anything) than so is theirs, more so in fact considering it's much newer. Most claims are generally old nonsense, no shame in that."

 

Israel has been recognized as a Jewish homeland for centuries, it has been reflected in Jewish culture, poetry, works of fiction & religion. Islam has absolutely not connection to Spain besides the fact they ruled there. 

 

The bibilical stories of the Jewish people are centered around Israel, Jewish kingdoms, Jerusalem, and many more. 

 

You're making a false equivalence here by confusing the fact Muslims conquered nowadays Spain(thus giving them a 'right' to it) with an emotional attachment of a people.  The claim for Israel isn't held by the fact Jews lived there, as opposing the 'claim' you're comparing for Spain.

 

 

Zionism's father was Herzl, who was all about making a secular, social country - it's not a 'wishy element', the main goal he envisioned was a modern, secular Israel supporting equal rights to all its inhibitants. This was not only on paper, Herzl & everyone that replaced him after his death, sought legal, justified actions with worldwide support. In that sense, the founding fathers's goal was the advancement of their own people - and every 'democratic' or 'modern' thoughts are wishy wash. It's nonsense, Israel being a Western nation was part of the Zionist dream. 

 

There is no Zionism without it. 

 

 

Being a zionist has nothing to do with being 'unloyal' to your own country.

[johnl023]

Vietnam, the Bible states that the Jews lived in Palestine far longer ago than the time period which the Arabs did.

I guess "isreal" is real. (It's spelled Israel!)

[Rozalia]

This conversation has mostly been about Zionism whether or not it's name was inferred. Literally just read the last page. 

 

The two aren't entirely comparable. Israel to Jews is the Vatican to Catholics. While The Vatican does not interact anywhere nearly as high on the international politics level, it is the state that epitomizes their religion essentially. While Pakistan was initially created as a safe place for Muslims to worship, it does not hold as much religious sovereignty as Mecca would (if it were a country). So in such a way, Jews all over the world are conflicted as to supporting Israel, as it is in most's biblical standards their "homeland". While many Jews may not agree with Israeli politics, they may associate themselves as Zionists out of the wish to support an openly Jewish state. 

 

So it's not really a matter of nationality, any catholic could tell you that they openly support the Vatican's existence. Similarly most Jews could tell you they support Israel's existence, mainly because it is the state embodiment of their beliefs.

 

And again, being anti-zionist does not equate to being anti-semitic. The more the two are associated, the more people begin to detest Jews out of the association with Israel and it's politics.

 

Honestly I don't much like the allegiance to the Pope myself (as been noted in the past), but if I had to compare the two while the Pope is also the leader of a "country", the Vatican is compared to Israel irrelevant as Israel is you know, a full blown state, and of course the Pope's main role is as a religious leader and not political one (these days anyway).

 

Israel has been recognized as a Jewish homeland for centuries, it has been reflected in Jewish culture, poetry, works of fiction & religion. Islam has absolutely not connection to Spain besides the fact they ruled there. 

 

The bibilical stories of the Jewish people are centered around Israel, Jewish kingdoms, Jerusalem, and many more. 

 

You're making a false equivalence here by confusing the fact Muslims conquered nowadays Spain(thus giving them a 'right' to it) with an emotional attachment of a people.  The claim for Israel isn't held by the fact Jews lived there, as opposing the 'claim' you're comparing for Spain.

 

 

Zionism's father was Herzl, who was all about making a secular, social country - it's not a 'wishy element', the main goal he envisioned was a modern, secular Israel supporting equal rights to all its inhibitants. This was not only on paper, Herzl & everyone that replaced him after his death, sought legal, justified actions with worldwide support. In that sense, the founding fathers's goal was the advancement of their own people - and every 'democratic' or 'modern' thoughts are wishy wash. It's nonsense, Israel being a Western nation was part of the Zionist dream. 

 

There is no Zionism without it. 

 

 

Being a zionist has nothing to do with being 'unloyal' to your own country.

 

Ancient claims don't mean much no matter how recent said ancient claim was "recognised", quotes as not all recognise it anyway (as with many claims). I mean if we're talking such things then France can claim through Charles Martel that a lot of Europe belongs to them, Portugal/Spain can claim the other belongs to them due to the Suebi/Visigoth, and it just goes on. 

 

ISIS's claim on Spain is seen for the nonsense it is because everyone knows ISIS cannot push their claim, were they able to then their claim would be seen as legitimate enough. Likewise talk of Jewish claims on the land being nonsense or not are pointless as they pushed their claim and have been sitting on it for decades. You seem to be getting very defensive because you think me calling it out as being nonsense means I think Israel has no right to a country, you would be incorrect. I think it's on the level of Ireland claiming Scotland because of the Celts or something like that, it's weak, but if you have the means to push it then it is legitimate enough.

 

Like I said, that is not "shared goals" with America. The reason I say wishy washy is I know the argument already, America likes Democracy (replace with secular, and other wishy washy things as desired) and so does Israel so they have "shared goals", but no it doesn't work like that as you could bring up say Denmark and say the same. The goals of Zionist Jews is the advancement of their country and people, nothing more (that is not a bad thing, the opposite in fact).

 

A man cannot serve two masters. If they wish to be Israeli/support Israel then they should go to what they see as their "homeland" and become a citizen, staying with the other master to try to guide things along so you can take from that master to give to the other is deceptive and unloyal and makes it easy to see where conspiracies start. There is always much talk of a Muslim Fifth column, but likewise there are people who speak of a Jewish Fifth Column too. I'm sorry to say but if a group (Zionist Jews) is conspiring to aid a foreign nation then what is that but a Fifth Column? By definition it has to be.

Of course I'm having to stick Jews at the end of Zionist above because I know full well Zionism isn't exclusive to Jews, many Christians are Zionists too which is I have to say even worse. Here for example it's the filth of politics, the blue/red/yellow Tories which is just another reason on a long list of reasons to be rid of such people.

 

Nationalism is a binary I'm afraid and they cannot be both nationalist for Israel and America, they can lie of course but it'll be just that, a lie. My advice to American (replace with other country as required) Jews would be to look within themselves and make the choice between their country and Israel. If they choose Israel then they know what they should do and go join who they perceive to be their brothers. If they choose their country then they are already living with their brothers and Israel is nothing but a foreign land full of foreigners, no different than any other. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Rozalia

[aaaaddd22]

Honestly I don't much like the allegiance to the Pope myself (as been noted in the past), but if I had to compare the two while the Pope is also the leader of a "country", the Vatican is compared to Israel irrelevant as Israel is you know, a full blown state, and of course the Pope's main role is as a religious leader and not political one (these days anyway).

 

 

Ancient claims don't mean much no matter how recent said ancient claim was "recognised", quotes as not all recognise it anyway (as with many claims). I mean if we're talking such things then France can claim through Charles Martel that a lot of Europe belongs to them, Portugal/Spain can claim the other belongs to them due to the Suebi/Visigoth, and it just goes on. 

 

ISIS's claim on Spain is seen for the nonsense it is because everyone knows ISIS cannot push their claim, were they able to then their claim would be seen as legitimate enough. Likewise talk of Jewish claims on the land being nonsense or not are pointless as they pushed their claim and have been sitting on it for decades. You seem to be getting very defensive because you think me calling it out as being nonsense means I think Israel has no right to a country, you would be incorrect. I think it's on the level of Ireland claiming Scotland because of the Celts or something like that, it's weak, but if you have the means to push it then it is legitimate enough.

 

Like I said, that is not "shared goals" with America. The reason I say wishy washy is I know the argument already, America likes Democracy (replace with secular, and other wishy washy things as desired) and so does Israel so they have "shared goals", but no it doesn't work like that as you could bring up say Denmark and say the same. The goals of Zionist Jews is the advancement of their country and people, nothing more (that is not a bad thing, the opposite in fact).

 

A man cannot serve two masters. If they wish to be Israeli/support Israel then they should go to what they see as their "homeland" and become a citizen, staying with the other master to try to guide things along so you can take from that master to give to the other is deceptive and unloyal and makes it easy to see where conspiracies start. There is always much talk of a Muslim Fifth column, but likewise there are people who speak of a Jewish Fifth Column too. I'm sorry to say but if a group (Zionist Jews) is conspiring to aid a foreign nation then what is that but a Fifth Column? By definition it has to be.

Of course I'm having to stick Jews at the end of Zionist above because I know full well Zionism isn't exclusive to Jews, many Christians are Zionists too which is I have to say even worse. Here for example it's the filth of politics, the blue/red/yellow Tories which is just another reason on a long list of reasons to be rid of such people.

 

Nationalism is a binary I'm afraid and they cannot be both nationalist for Israel and America, they can lie of course but it'll be just that, a lie. My advice to American (replace with other country as required) Jews would be to look within themselves and make the choice between their country and Israel. If they choose Israel then they know what they should do and go join who they perceive to be their brothers. If they choose their country then they are already living with their brothers and Israel is nothing but a foreign land full of foreigners, no different than any other. 

 

You're conflating two wrong ideas again, the claim for Israel isn't driven by the fact Jews lived in Israel, but the deep connection Jews have to Israel. This isn't an ancient claim, it's an ongoing connection and yearn of Jews worldwide to return to Israel. This is something common to nearly all Jews no matter how culturally divided they were, the main principles of Judaism have remained almost exactly the same from Eastern Europe to Yemen & Africa, which is something that cannot be said for any other people. 

 

Then, again, you're conflating two wrong ideas - I realize 'righteous' claims are decided by the stronger party, this isn't what I'm talking about. When you try to make reality objective, a lot of other crimes are only 'subjectively immoral' since we define them as such. 

 

I'm not talking about a universal acceptance of right, wrong or claims on land - I'm talking in the context of subjective morality as modern humans accept it.

 

In that sense, empires & kingdoms don't have any long-lasting historical claim for a land they've conquered. The exact same applies to Jews, you don't seem to grasp that - Jews don't get their 'claim' for Israel by the fact Jews ruled in Israel, but an ongoing global Jewish consciousness. I've been trying to explain this is a cultural & religious connection. 

 

 

Why do you define your country as a master? This analogy ncorrect, as I can counter-example with loving both of your parents equally. (Unless, you think, one is incapable of loving both parents since 'A man cannot serve two masters').

Even then, the parent analogy is flawed, since supporting Israel doesn't come in place of supporting your home country - this false dilemma you present is fallacious & insulting to many patriots that also support Israel. 

[Rozalia]

You're conflating two wrong ideas again, the claim for Israel isn't driven by the fact Jews lived in Israel, but the deep connection Jews have to Israel. This isn't an ancient claim, it's an ongoing connection and yearn of Jews worldwide to return to Israel. This is something common to nearly all Jews no matter how culturally divided they were, the main principles of Judaism have remained almost exactly the same from Eastern Europe to Yemen & Africa, which is something that cannot be said for any other people. 

 

Then, again, you're conflating two wrong ideas - I realize 'righteous' claims are decided by the stronger party, this isn't what I'm talking about. When you try to make reality objective, a lot of other crimes are only 'subjectively immoral' since we define them as such. 

 

I'm not talking about a universal acceptance of right, wrong or claims on land - I'm talking in the context of subjective morality as modern humans accept it.

 

In that sense, empires & kingdoms don't have any long-lasting historical claim for a land they've conquered. The exact same applies to Jews, you don't seem to grasp that - Jews don't get their 'claim' for Israel by the fact Jews ruled in Israel, but an ongoing global Jewish consciousness. I've been trying to explain this is a cultural & religious connection. 

 

 

Why do you define your country as a master? This analogy ncorrect, as I can counter-example with loving both of your parents equally. (Unless, you think, one is incapable of loving both parents since 'A man cannot serve two masters').

Even then, the parent analogy is flawed, since supporting Israel doesn't come in place of supporting your home country - this false dilemma you present is fallacious & insulting to many patriots that also support Israel. 

 

Utter tosh, you don't get claims from mere "yearnings". Without the invented (to be clear this isn't an insult, all nationalism gets invented at some point) nationalism of Zionism such a "yearning" wouldn't even exist, not to mention said Zionist were quite happy to settle down in Africa before they won the jackpot. 

 

As I said Israel's claim is perfectly legitimate based on the fact they have pushed it and have kept it enforced for decades. Were we in an alternate world where they didn't have a country and started talking about it then it'd be simply nonsense until again, it can be pushed and then enforced.

 

I'm not seeing why America stands out in the "shared goals" business especially when many said Jews were/are from European countries not America.

 

No. If not for their ancient claim this "consciousness" you speak of wouldn't exist. Perhaps it would exist in a varied form where they'd want a country somewhere, but without the ancient claim it would be extremely unlikely to be around the middle east they'd want a country considering the neighbors. 

 

Come now? Citing parents as a counter point? Really? Parents isn't a matter of masters, don't equate family ties like that. The quote I used has a couple of contexts the more famous being the bible quote which is supposed to push that you cannot serve Greed and God at the same time, which can still be used obviously but I'd have to connect the dots. Another perhaps easier to get across was for example Zhang Ren a Chinese general who was also quoted as saying that (not exact words obviously, but same deal) when he chose death over surrender that he could not serve the lord who wished him to surrender as he was already serving another lord. Using that one makes it a bit more obvious I think which is simply put you cannot be a nationalist of two countries (the lords in this case).

 

Zionism is about having a Jewish nation, not simply a country that happens to have a good deal of Jews in it. Thus the Jews are seen as a separate people in Zionism, as such when an American Jew decides to support Israel based on his belief in Zionism he is putting Jews (a separate people in Zionist terms) ahead of his brothers and sisters, the Americans. Of course I understand the confusion of some people as Jewish is both a religious status and a nationality.

 

Nothing fallacious about it, you're just dealing in absolutes from what I can gather. I for example accept Israel as a state and would if asked agree it should continue, they've enforced their claims for decades and it's irrelevant to me if they continue to keep it or not. However am I a Zionist? No. A Zionist does different, first they are from what many have seen a more "rabid" beast when it comes to their support, but it doesn't stop there as they involve money in the matter and even prioritise Israeli interests over their own nation's, explaining it away with terms like "shared interests". America is a good example in this as every man on the street knows the Zionist element in America is corrupt, of course American politics is known to be massively corrupt so it's not a unique thing.

 

Defining them as patriots is quite right, they are known to aggressively defend their country from detractors and enemies, real or imagined. However who are they patriots of? America or Israel? Well the answer would be Israel of course and the American status is merely a tool to better support their country, the foreign element known as Israel.

Personally while all the respect to the Zionist nationalists in Israel especially for making use of what would be referred to as "useful idiots", those elsewhere who are made use of are a very devious and odd bunch. Like I said a person cannot be a nationalist of two countries and saying as such is no insult, an insult would be said person trying to lie and claim they indeed serve two masters at the same level and I'm sorry to say that is not something you can say about such people. Their nationalism for Israel means they support and lobby for Israel to parasitically absorb strength from America their other supposed "master", and just what is that if that not betraying one master for the other. 

[aaaaddd22]

Utter tosh, you don't get claims from mere "yearnings". Without the invented (to be clear this isn't an insult, all nationalism gets invented at some point) nationalism of Zionism such a "yearning" wouldn't even exist, not to mention said Zionist were quite happy to settle down in Africa before they won the jackpot. 

 

As I said Israel's claim is perfectly legitimate based on the fact they have pushed it and have kept it enforced for decades. Were we in an alternate world where they didn't have a country and started talking about it then it'd be simply nonsense until again, it can be pushed and then enforced.

 

I'm not seeing why America stands out in the "shared goals" business especially when many said Jews were/are from European countries not America.

 

No. If not for their ancient claim this "consciousness" you speak of wouldn't exist. Perhaps it would exist in a varied form where they'd want a country somewhere, but without the ancient claim it would be extremely unlikely to be around the middle east they'd want a country considering the neighbors. 

 

Come now? Citing parents as a counter point? Really? Parents isn't a matter of masters, don't equate family ties like that. The quote I used has a couple of contexts the more famous being the bible quote which is supposed to push that you cannot serve Greed and God at the same time, which can still be used obviously but I'd have to connect the dots. Another perhaps easier to get across was for example Zhang Ren a Chinese general who was also quoted as saying that (not exact words obviously, but same deal) when he chose death over surrender that he could not serve the lord who wished him to surrender as he was already serving another lord. Using that one makes it a bit more obvious I think which is simply put you cannot be a nationalist of two countries (the lords in this case).

 

Zionism is about having a Jewish nation, not simply a country that happens to have a good deal of Jews in it. Thus the Jews are seen as a separate people in Zionism, as such when an American Jew decides to support Israel based on his belief in Zionism he is putting Jews (a separate people in Zionist terms) ahead of his brothers and sisters, the Americans. Of course I understand the confusion of some people as Jewish is both a religious status and a nationality.

 

Nothing fallacious about it, you're just dealing in absolutes from what I can gather. I for example accept Israel as a state and would if asked agree it should continue, they've enforced their claims for decades and it's irrelevant to me if they continue to keep it or not. However am I a Zionist? No. A Zionist does different, first they are from what many have seen a more "rabid" beast when it comes to their support, but it doesn't stop there as they involve money in the matter and even prioritise Israeli interests over their own nation's, explaining it away with terms like "shared interests". America is a good example in this as every man on the street knows the Zionist element in America is corrupt, of course American politics is known to be massively corrupt so it's not a unique thing.

 

Defining them as patriots is quite right, they are known to aggressively defend their country from detractors and enemies, real or imagined. However who are they patriots of? America or Israel? Well the answer would be Israel of course and the American status is merely a tool to better support their country, the foreign element known as Israel.

Personally while all the respect to the Zionist nationalists in Israel especially for making use of what would be referred to as "useful idiots", those elsewhere who are made use of are a very devious and odd bunch. Like I said a person cannot be a nationalist of two countries and saying as such is no insult, an insult would be said person trying to lie and claim they indeed serve two masters at the same level and I'm sorry to say that is not something you can say about such people. Their nationalism for Israel means they support and lobby for Israel to parasitically absorb strength from America their other supposed "master", and just what is that if that not betraying one master for the other. 

 

"Without the invented (to be clear this isn't an insult, all nationalism gets invented at some point) nationalism of Zionism such a "yearning" wouldn't even exist, not to mention said Zionist were quite happy to settle down in Africa before they won the jackpot. "

 

 

The yearn for a Jewish nation in Israel predates Zionism, all aspects of Jewish spiritual life ­ culture, prayer, ritual and literature ­ have been suffused over the centuries with the yearning to return to Zion. The notion that it didn't exist before modern Zionism is absolute nonsense. 

 

No one was happy to 'settle on Africa', it was one of the least accepted solutions to the Jewish agenda, Herzl simply put it out as that is what he has offered, and the backlash was heard throughout. Saying such nonsense shows your ignorance about Zionism and Jewish tradition. 

 

The country of origin of Jews is irrelevant, seeing as anyone could convert, inter-religious relationships developed and general Jewish assimilation. Ashkenazi Jews still held almost identical traditions to Mizrahi Jews & African Jews. Either way, the US-Israeli relations are a different discussion. 

 

The point about the mother/father is that your country isn't a master, being patriotic and being obedient are two different things. Jews in America have always been involved in the millitary, science and technology, as well as in politics. If anything, they're one of the most contributing groups to the country. 

 

"Jewish nation" is subject to interpretation, since Herzl & modern Zionism doesn't want a theocracy("Jewish nation") but rather a state that is Jewish ( "State of the Jews") with Jewish tradition, symbolism & such. The ancient claim could be false and Jews would yearn for Israel - the ancient claim is merely one fact of many, and even if you've somehow proven that 100% of Jews have absolutely no ancestry in the middle east, they would still feel the same way. 

 

Zionism doesn't come in contrast to nationality. I'm a Zionist and I don't even like Israel! (At least not particulary more than other countries)

[Doktor Avalanche]

There is one thing to be said here regarding Israel,the Jews and a Jewish State. Within all of the conflicts tat have happened since 1948 over the Levant, the formation of the Palestine State and the conflicts with the bordering neighbors over the establishment of Israel, why does anyone, other than the Palestinians, care so much over a small chunk of land that was worthless and virtually barren before the Jews started arriving? The Arabs who held it before the migration started did nothing except use it for grazing purposes and tiny little hamlets with dirt farms is all that was there. Then all of a sudden it was the most demanded territory on the planet, hated and targeted by every Muslim nation surrounding it and a home to others who have been empty spiritually for a land since their Diaspora. Since that time we have a picture of war, constant bickering of territory, hatred and stubbornness from all sides of every conflict, all over what was a small useless plot of dirt.

However, there is another picture of Israel.

 

The fact remains that it is not just a plot of land the Arabs are angry about, its the fact that the Jews got their Jewish State. This conflict is not over the Levant, it is over their denial to recognize that the Jews have a State. if Israel were on an island with no border to any other nation in the middle of the Pacific, they would still be at constant war with all of the Arab nations, not recognizing their right to be a Nation. The land is nothing. The Jewish State is the issue.

[Rozalia]

The yearn for a Jewish nation in Israel predates Zionism, all aspects of Jewish spiritual life ­ culture, prayer, ritual and literature ­ have been suffused over the centuries with the yearning to return to Zion. The notion that it didn't exist before modern Zionism is absolute nonsense. 

 

No one was happy to 'settle on Africa', it was one of the least accepted solutions to the Jewish agenda, Herzl simply put it out as that is what he has offered, and the backlash was heard throughout. Saying such nonsense shows your ignorance about Zionism and Jewish tradition. 

 

The country of origin of Jews is irrelevant, seeing as anyone could convert, inter-religious relationships developed and general Jewish assimilation. Ashkenazi Jews still held almost identical traditions to Mizrahi Jews & African Jews. Either way, the US-Israeli relations are a different discussion. 

 

The point about the mother/father is that your country isn't a master, being patriotic and being obedient are two different things. Jews in America have always been involved in the millitary, science and technology, as well as in politics. If anything, they're one of the most contributing groups to the country. 

 

"Jewish nation" is subject to interpretation, since Herzl & modern Zionism doesn't want a theocracy("Jewish nation") but rather a state that is Jewish ( "State of the Jews") with Jewish tradition, symbolism & such. The ancient claim could be false and Jews would yearn for Israel - the ancient claim is merely one fact of many, and even if you've somehow proven that 100% of Jews have absolutely no ancestry in the middle east, they would still feel the same way. 

 

Zionism doesn't come in contrast to nationality. I'm a Zionist and I don't even like Israel! (At least not particulary more than other countries)

 

Were that true all followers of Judaism would be Zionists... they ain't, many heavily against it. Additionally what you're talking about is again, just an old claim. The rest seems to be Zionist propaganda on your part.

 

First, most wouldn't even know that to begin with so hardly a show of ignorance. Second if they didn't hit the "jackpot" as I put they would have eventually settled on that and fast forward lets say a decade and the people living there would be saying it's all dandy. 

 

No. Zionist Jewishness is a nationality, not a matter of religion (though conflating the two when needed to suit needs is obviously useful). Fact is those people are Americans, Britons, French, so on not Jewish in Zionist terms. Zionist Jews being small in number and taking advantage of weaknesses in people's psyche got people to become citizens of theirs and thus Jews in their nationalistic terms. A British Jew who renounces his citizenship to go live in Israel is not the same as a Jew who remains in Britain and wants nothing to do with Israel. In Zionist and thus nationalistic terms they are two separate people, one Israeli (Jewish), the other British. Having claimed ownership of all Jews Zionists attack them (those who either don't join them in Israel or act as a Fifth Column for their interests) as haters of "their" people and other such nonsense naturally.

 

Master was simply the word I used, I could have easily used father/mother and said you can't have two (biological) fathers/mothers, however I didn't because I try to avoid routes people can use to try to make things about race and such. I'm a firm believer in naturalisation and the good immigrants can bring, I'm just not a loony about it. Anyway, yes, many are rich and contribute making them all the more effective at serving their real master's interests. Fact of the matter is they have loyalties to a foreign nation and that as a nationalist is very disturbing, unless of course they have naturalised/in process and have joined the nation they've been adopted into.

 

Yes as I said, it's not a Jewish nation in religious terms it's one in nationalist terms. Again how legitimate it is, is quite irrelevant. The Jews could all be all Khazars like some say and it wouldn't make a lick of difference in regards to Israel's claim and ownership of the land, I've been agreeing with you on that, where the conflict comes is you when you talk of Jews "yearning" you're using it in religious terms while I put to you that only Jews in nationalistic terms (Zionists) do the "yearning". In fact speaking of their claim, Palestine in reality owns nothing, not even the little scraps they've got, Israel is merely playing the slow burn and they'll eventually get it all. Were they to do it quick and get all of Israel tomorrow I might make a throwaway comment about the loss of life being "tragic" but not much more, I don't delude myself into thinking I could care about such people for real like many do. Heck were they to start (or continue as some might say) abusing Arabs heavily in Israel I'd understand why as the Jewish Nationalists as commendable as their nation building is are sitting on a time bomb of sorts, one you want to deal with sooner rather than later I'd say as imagine it goes off when they lose American support, it'd be disastrous.

 

Then you need to think about if that is really true or not. Like I said I recognise Israel and the land is theirs as far as I'm concerned, however I don't go about defending their interests on instinct and I'm certainly not going to be providing resources and time to press forward their agenda. Most people are like that. There are however many who are very zealous in their defending of Israel and stoop to some nasty gambits like when someone mentioned the talk of "cards". Those people are acting as Zionists and trying to forward a foreign nation's interests, often above their own. 

 

There is one thing to be said here regarding Israel,the Jews and a Jewish State. Within all of the conflicts tat have happened since 1948 over the Levant, the formation of the Palestine State and the conflicts with the bordering neighbors over the establishment of Israel, why does anyone, other than the Palestinians, care so much over a small chunk of land that was worthless and virtually barren before the Jews started arriving? The Arabs who held it before the migration started did nothing except use it for grazing purposes and tiny little hamlets with dirt farms is all that was there. Then all of a sudden it was the most demanded territory on the planet, hated and targeted by every Muslim nation surrounding it and a home to others who have been empty spiritually for a land since their Diaspora. Since that time we have a picture of war, constant bickering of territory, hatred and stubbornness from all sides of every conflict, all over what was a small useless plot of dirt.

 

However, there is another picture of Israel.

 

The fact remains that it is not just a plot of land the Arabs are angry about, its the fact that the Jews got their Jewish State. This conflict is not over the Levant, it is over their denial to recognize that the Jews have a State. if Israel were on an island with no border to any other nation in the middle of the Pacific, they would still be at constant war with all of the Arab nations, not recognizing their right to be a Nation. The land is nothing. The Jewish State is the issue.

You are correct there definitely. The Muslim states oppress countless people within their lands be it for what culture they belong to or religion they follow. Their hatred of Jews is massive though sometimes I wonder if they hate other groups of Muslims even more. Additionally being followers of "Conservative Islam", in quotes because many in the area are outright Jihadist they would no doubt want nothing more to slaughter every single Jew in Israel and destroy the state. With all that... how can anyone think such Muslim states could have one real care for the Palestinians? They don't and never will. 

 

In the fantasy land some people live in Israel could have their state and a nice little Palestine could be put down also, containing Muslims who are friendly to Jews. However reality doesn't work like that and surrounding Muslim nation's influence is always working on making sure the hatred keeps going on the Muslim end, though I doubt the Palestinians need any pushing on the matter. 

Another of course is that Israel successfully integrates them all but... I doubt that very much. 

 

[aaaaddd22]

At this point you're just babbling incoherent paragraphs, talking about who considers who a Jew and how it's taking advantage of peoples psyche. Just rubbish...

[Avruch]

ITT Rozalia says a bunch of ridiculous things that not even he can really believe are true. 

[Rozalia]

At this point you're just babbling incoherent paragraphs, talking about who considers who a Jew and how it's taking advantage of peoples psyche. Just rubbish...

 

Not seeing it. The nationalist idea gained more prominence after WW2 where Jews were killed and they felt they were hated throughout the world, that is taking advantage of the psyche to better gain citizens and support for your new nation. If you think it's justified/correct is another matter entirely but it happened that much is certain (though some may not put it in the way I did of course). I can ramble I'm aware instead of just making the main simple point (I actually do this as a habit as I hate having back and forths where people say "well you forgot to address X,Y, and Z" and such), but I am consistent in my beliefs I know that much.

 

ITT Rozalia says a bunch of ridiculous things that not even he can really believe are true. 

 

Why would I say a bunch of things I don't believe? If you pointed out where exactly I'm supposedly being dishonest that would be helpful and I'd try to clarify whatever it as concise as possible.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Rozalia

[Avruch]

Why would I say a bunch of things I don't believe? If you pointed out where exactly I'm supposedly being dishonest that would be helpful and I'd try to clarify whatever it as concise as possible.

 

How about the part where Zionism is a nationality, or where you can't be a citizen of country other than Israel and still be a Zionist? I have a hard time believing your fundamental failure to understand simple concepts is genuine. If you decide to reply, please try to be succinct. 

[Rozalia]

How about the part where Zionism is a nationality, or where you can't be a citizen of country other than Israel and still be a Zionist? I have a hard time believing your fundamental failure to understand simple concepts is genuine. If you decide to reply, please try to be succinct. 

 

You have misunderstood or I failed in communicating and put across the wrong idea. I was referring to Zionist Jews which is the nationality otherwise known as Israeli (Jewish), I did put it in brackets above like all of once so I can see how that can be thought. The point I made is Jewishness is often I've seen put forward that Jewish people in Israel and those elsewhere are a one people, but in nationalist terms they are not one people. That was all.

 

Of course you can be a Zionist and a citizen of a country other than Israel, I even said you can be a Christian in America and Zionist so I'm not sure how you could think I said otherwise unless you missed that. Being a nationalist and a citizen are completely different things.

What I put forward is you can not be a nationalist of two countries. Nationalism is about putting your nation state's (more to it but keeping it short) interest above all other groupings which includes other nation states naturally. Now you can argue otherwise if you wish of course, but to me personally as a nationalist and thinking logically it's not possible.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Rozalia

[Avruch]

You have misunderstood or I failed in communicating and put across the wrong idea. I was referring to Zionist Jews which is the nationality otherwise known as Israeli (Jewish), I did put it in brackets above like all of once so I can see how that can be thought. The point I made is Jewishness is often I've seen put forward that Jewish people in Israel and those elsewhere are a one people, but in nationalist terms they are not one people. That was all.

 

Of course you can be a Zionist and a citizen of a country other than Israel, I even said you can be a Christian in America and Zionist so I'm not sure how you could think I said otherwise unless you missed that. Being a nationalist and a citizen are completely different things.

What I put forward is you can not be a nationalist of two countries. Nationalism is about putting your nation state's (more to it but keeping it short) interest above all other groupings which includes other nation states naturally. Now you can argue otherwise if you wish of course, but to me personally as a nationalist and thinking logically it's not possible.

 

I'm not sure where you came up with the concept of "Zionist Jewishness." I've studied Zionism and international relations and Judaism and never come across that term. I think your definition of nationalist as exclusive of other loyalties is weak. Zionism is the political movement for the establishment of Israel. Modern variations are focused on maintaining the success of the original Zionist movement. I think one can both support the existence of the Jewish state of Israel and also have nationalist loyalties in ones own nation of origin. 

[Rozalia]

I'm not sure where you came up with the concept of "Zionist Jewishness." I've studied Zionism and international relations and Judaism and never come across that term. I think your definition of nationalist as exclusive of other loyalties is weak. Zionism is the political movement for the establishment of Israel. Modern variations are focused on maintaining the success of the original Zionist movement. I think one can both support the existence of the Jewish state of Israel and also have nationalist loyalties in ones own nation of origin. 

 

I edited it before you posted. Oh and it's your right to obviously see it like that, I have people tell me nationalism is pointless and we should all be one free world and such all the time. To me personally it's a very strong concept, and holding it that strongly it obviously will feature in some of my posts when I state my thoughts on related matters.

 

Your final bit is something I've said as such myself, it's just what exactly that "support" entails. If it is merely a matter of supporting the right of a nation state to exist then, no problem at all. I personally believe Israel should indeed continue to exist... so should Switzerland and so forth. If it's to the point that you're a "Patriot" who aggressively attacks any critiques of Israel, uses devious slurs, supports Israel unflinchingly simply because  or even worse, you spend capital be it monetary or otherwise to make use of your country to aid Israel with little to negative benefit by comparison for your own nation? That is a quite different level of support. 

 

Oh and I did address those who aren't Jews and are Zionists and in support of such things, I believe the term I used there was "Useful Idiots".

Edited January 26, 2016 by Rozalia