Cooper_

You have failed to truly respond to any of our arguments. All you've offered so far is whataboutism, weak spin, and a few caged insults. And now you're choosing to hide behind rhetoric like "it's business" and trying to make light of our understanding of FA instead of responding to the point. You didn't need Rose to win this war. It's that simple. I get it in a way because there is no real response to it, especially considering our shared history in DH. But it's disappointing that we're still fumbling around trying to justify it. At the very least, you've admitted that your stated CB in the OP was a joke.

You're the only one who is saying that. My point is that you shouldn't be proud of going in as a dogpile. I simply never understand all of the fist-thumping about fighting a war you have no chance of losing. It's a coward's move. Fight us fairly by yourselves. We'll be down for it whenever.

You shouldn't quote someone if you're going to ignore the point they were making and the context it was said in. I made a point that the alliances of T$ and Rose alone were likely enough to take down GG based on tiering. It was an explanation that they're not some unstoppable force, but could be taken down by just two alliances' tiering alone. In the grand scheme, GG, T$, and Rose (along with their affiliates) were all upper tier poles and that had a balancing effect in that any combination of two could take out the third. That doesn't imply that it is necessary to have two to take out one rather it implies that they no single pole was too powerful. Obviously, GG barely sustained damage. We were dogpiled just like you're doing to us right now, which is frankly more than a bit hypocritical. You're not getting coverage. You're guaranteeing a lopsided war because you were too afraid to fight us fairly. This is just a pure lie. I've said on numerous occasions that I think BW v HW would be a fair matchup. I've continually pointed out how BW alone is a decently larger sphere than HW to the tune of 10-20% larger, and how you guys outtier us in the upper tier too. The only tier that we have an advantage in is the 20 or so nations that are C40+ in a war of 1000s of nations. I said BW v HW would be a competitive matchup where we'd probably have an advantage in the whale tier while you guys win everything else, and that was when we still had CoTL/E404. With a good blitz, the current BW could've definitely won a war against HW. It might've not been easy mode, but it would've been a fun and fairer war. I think @hidude45454 has already said as much. Bringing Rose in with you was a cowardly and unnecessary move.

I didn't think anybody would catch our 10-d chess move to hit ourselves. Sharp one, you are!

They learned from the best after all.

You didn't even make this HS vs. SK-themed. Sad.

I'm just waiting for the reinforcements from Oasis and MI to even out the dogpile. Don't keep me waiting too long folks!

The last war that started without a CB was Surf's Up?

One does not simply sign Rose. One merges into Rose.

5/5 would f*** again. Best of luck to you folks.

I'm not trying to insert myself in the relitigation of the war, but I don't think we need to base our arguments on assumptions of someone's OOC mental status. It isn't relevant, necessary, nor strengthen your argument.

New tiering numbers for those who are curious. I'm genuinely glad we won't have to deal with any bad faith arguments about upper tier consolidation anymore now since it's even more hotly contested. Good luck with the treaties, folks. Hopefully interesting politics ahead for all of our futures!

Bud, this is a peace post. You can drop the propaganda lines and just say "good luck." For many of us, we had a lot of fun this war, and I think everyone has reason to be happy with the fighting and the outcome. Good luck and enjoy rebuilds everyone

Honestly wtf. This is is not even the first of this kind of post this war. Do you have nothing better to do than to objectify other players? This a game where we're supposed to have fun and share IC banter. Targeting someone, especially because they have chosen to share their gender, is not at all ok. We're all human beings. Treat people with dignity and respect, especially with borderline OOC offenses. This is just garbage.

I think you've got your history wrong. TKR was the first non-allied alliance (outside of then BK sphere) to have official embassy/DM with Camelot. We actually enjoyed quite friendly relations despite being at war due to a variety of OOC and IC reasons, particularly Arthur (and later Uriah, Viselli, and Aero). We also were the ones who internally asked some of our allies in Quack to take it easy for a bit after we realized that the OWF treatment y'all got was a bit intense. And during all of this time--we have always kept open lines of communication, explaining not only our viewpoints on how you guys needed to improve your image but also genuinely trying to approach y'all as we would any other alliance. The singular turning point in our relationship, frankly, was when you took over Camelot's FA. I don't know your internals and decision-making process, so I can't determine everyone else but you've definitely been the face of all of our issues. Instead of Camelot being a somewhat goofy and in many cases silly (i say this endearingly) alliance, y'all increasingly switched towards the zero-sum realpolitik reminiscent of NPO and the strategies you personally employed in BK. Every time we have contact with you, it's a never-ending tussle to see how you can milk out more for Camelot. From trying to seize tiny quantities of safekeeping with baseless allegations of bank theft (we made sure that would never happen) to threatening escalation on a mistaken raid (which you later reversed after you realized you were taking more damage than we were), you have proven time and again that there hasn't been growth from Gorge to Azazel and by extension Camelot. This current conflict is just icing on the cake of what is a persistent issue with the FA style being used. The only ask we've ever made of you is to operate in good faith, and to stop trying to bully your way to what you want. And yet you've only taken 7 steps in the other direction. I don't think anyone believes that you care about consolidation or sphere sizing not that they're legitimate points from you. You probably already aware that HW isn't the largest sphere by a large margin and that T$ is literally the only alliance that has any sort of principled stance on upper tier consolidation. They're simply convenience to invalidly join what you thought was an easy war (jokes on you there since you guys have gotten slaughtered in damages) for a grudge about not fully getting your way. If you think that this is what a reformed post-NPOLT Camelot would do, try again. This ain't it.

I can't control the actions of my spheremates (they can and do have different stances as is the nature of a sphere), but TKR was instructed to avoid Swords until aggressive action was taken against TKR. I did make a fuss about this internally, and agree with you. I think Yarr and RnR are exceptions to this by virtue of their history and somewhat abnormally-recognized protectorate status. You should note I didn't actually claim whether or not the initial war was a dogpile because the nature of a logical dilemma means that you don't have a valid CB whether or not it was a dogpile. Put simply, the response to "hmm I don't like that HW is dogpiling" isn't "let me go dogpile them instead but three times worse." You literally become the problem you state you're against. That is the definition of hypocrisy, and the entirety of the Aurora FA department does not have a single response to this. I'll bite for one last time though on the numbers. I walked through this with you. Personally. We used total city counts because that's the simplest statistic for military potential (most relevant military units are acquired relative to city count). If I used total nation counts, the numbers would be even more lopsided in your favor and make my argument even stronger. No one is arguing that it was a fair war (mostly because Rose was demilled), but the numbers evidence that it could've been competitive at multiple tiers on paper. Your alliance (and Camelot) haven't participated in a global with numbers anywhere close to this, including your participation in this one. Please cite the actual tiering numbers for reference:

First, I'd just like to say that TKR fully supports Oceania's decision here. We always give our protectorates the choice to join a war, and we've worked to keep them out in the past when they've chosen to avoid war. In this instance, miscommunications led to attacks on Oceania that our efforts couldn't avoid. I appreciate the work on both sides here to get this resolved. I think that's all that needs to be said. No need for politicization. Second, @ToxicPepper I already explained this to your whole FA team even though it seems to have gone over your head. It was 1.3:1 when HW enterred against Rose, and it was 1.6:1 when Oasis entered against HW and now 2:1 with y'all's entry. There is no way to justify your war because it results in a simple dilemma. Option A is that we call the first war against Rose a dogpile, but that means your entry was a dogpile of triple the magnitude making you a hypocrite and invalidating your CB. Option B is that it wasn't a dogpile by virtue of being closer than any global Aurora has ever fought in, which means y'all don't have a CB and also have an invalid entry. In either case, you don't have a justification for being in this war. Now, please bring the lies somewhere else.

The point being that you may find more traction in your points if you engage with people in a nicer manner. It makes anyone seem they're engaging in bad faith, and often gets you ignored by the more serious posters. Just responding to you, but I think there are a lot of examples of folks who have gone a bit overboard recently. We've definitely made a lot of progress from previous wars, but it isn't nice to see someone coming hot out of the gate just launching insults and insinuations. At the end of the day, we're here to enjoy a game and have some interesting political drama. I enjoy a proper roasting as much as the next person, but there's a way to do that so that the person behind the screen laughs with you or at least rolls their eyes knowing they were bested. Just some thoughts to consider irrespective of political considerations, and who knows... your narrative against my alliance may work better.

The integrity here is upholding principles that nobody else would. We knew that going into this we'd get a lot of backlash, but this was the fairest war in terms of tiering in years and responded to meta concerns that we thought were important. I expected a coalition to form in response to this war. I didn't think people would illegitimately no-cb into a dogpile for entirely hypocritical reasons. It kinda does suck that all of the minisphere and dynamism rhetoric, especially out of Oasis, was just a political prop but also to be expected. We got rolled for having secret treaties, and it is still my impression that a rolling is the proper meta consequence to abusing the meta with a secret treaty. That is our honor that we recovered after KF, and the honor we're acting on now. But TKR was more than willing to accept a potential rolling down the road to make sure that we saw this righted. Our honor is also why we get continually rolled for putting up with principles that other spheres just like to represent as narratives only when it supports their objectives. I'm ok with that because at the end of the day, I go to sleep knowing that we did the right thing. We don't do secret treaties, we mix up our ties and explore options (including y'all for a long period of time), and we constantly balance our interests with that of the meta. And most importantly the TKR community knows this--if you're ever wondering why we never quit. Journey before destination, my friend.

Hi friend, this is virtually the same sheet I used last war when I was fighting G/G and had no incentive to hide their tiering. I believe if you add Yarr and RnR into your analysis, the 40+ tier becomes closer not to mention that Rose dominates that low-30 tier with their tiering at C32. I'd also throw out that 2 of the 3 spheres have heavy tiering advantages at the low and mid tiers by design, so in reality we're only fighting one (and a little bit for Oasis and Cam) of the 3 spheres with a real upper tier, Rose, with the third one being Syndi. Hollywood doesn't even have the majority of nations at C35+, and other spheres have similar percentages of tiers at the lower and mid levels. If Hollywood has consolidated the upper tier, then Oasis has consolidated the low tiers and Syndi/Rose and the upper-mid tiers. In order for the argument to work, everyone else has to be guilty of consolidating a different tier as well. I think the simpler logical outcome is that different spheres have different advantages and disadvantages. Hollywood is relatively much weaker in the low tiers while having strength in the upper tiers.

Hi friend, we really have to stop meeting like this, but for your viewing pleasure: I do hope this helps clear up your confusion about our consolidation of the upper tier.

When word reached us that The Knights Radiant had ensured that we got our bank returned and responded to all of our concerns regarding safekeeping and membership, it was a pressing enough threat. This was coupled with a rogue gov member from their protectorate saying mean things about our failure to sustain a protectorate. As pretenses fell, we realized that Camelot had to go back to its time of glory from where George and SCX was born--the time of the Inquisition. Whether it was now or after the war, we wanted to use the same FA style as we did before to bully people into getting what we want. We have been reluctant to show our true face because that'd get us rolled. We have stood idly by but now the time is to follow NPO's lead. In every previous war, Camelot has only entered wars where we greatly outnumber our opponents and now we're getting another free win by interfering in another war to extend our proud legacy. Note this is our decision unilaterally as we could no longer allow these TKR people to call out when we try and fail to bully them. It is regrettable that we couldn't stack the odds more in our favor. There is every intention of domination. The imbalance we have introduced made it clear that our entry will solidify Camelot and George's reputation as being past their IQ ways. The numbers cited have made it clear that this is a war heavily in our favor, allowing us to stroke our egos and for me to secretly continue embezzling the alliance bank. We did everything we could to make sure we never have to fight a real war. By the day, TKR had been just too honorable for us to handle and BK was just so much better at being BK than we are. We expect to take little losses as we engage in tiers that have already been decided, which is why we declare war on TKR. Tl;dr Never forget that Camelot will always fight those darn hegemons.

We've made a lot of progress on this front, and part of the reason why we signed into Hollywood was the agreement that we would make everything public. The quite public signing of Hollywood is a testament to this. This also doesn't consider that Rose actually used its treaties, changed the outcome of a war, and had lectured us before while HM had done none of that. Our sphere is the second-largest about 20% smaller than Syndisphere and only about 10-15% larger than Oasis. Our upper tier is comparable to both Syndisphere and Rose's. I'd point you to my previous post on tiering for C31+ range. And if you're still concerned about our 7 nation advantage in the C31+ range, I'd point out that every sphere has advantages and disadvantages. The lower tier is much more consolidated in Oasis than the upper tier in Hollywood, which is frankly quite competitive for a few spheres now that alliances have begun to catch up to G/G and TKR being the weakest upper tier out of the TKR/Rose/T$ trio. And given the sudden change we just saw in the meta, I'd say our moves were rather dynamic. We're working with someone we saw as straight-up enemies just a month ago. Heck, most of the game has now endured a rolling with us in some form. We are shuffling treaties and always willing to find new partners. You're right that we've talked about minispheres, but until we cut the secret treaties bs that won't be viable. So I'll settle for a multipolar world where we've got 3-5 strong spheres and a few smaller ones to make for an interesting and dynamic meta. For y'all and Oasis' sake, having a smaller sphere and maintaining secret ties does not qualify as dyanmic nor supportive of minispheres. It's actually the biggest object to achieving a true minispheres vision.

I mean we're not. We've been allied with CoS, SK, T$, HS among others all of whom who hit us during KF. That's just disingenuous spinning of us pointing out a double standard being applied against us. You told us we couldn't do secret treaties, and we listened after we paid for it. It seems only fair that when you do the same against us the same price should be paid. Meta infractions deserve meta consequences. You know that isn't true. We get along quite with y'all on a personal level. I'm personally friends with most of your high gov. Further, we've just signed people who also just hit us during that same war and did the same thing during KF. We're not one for grudges, but we take the meta circumstances quite seriously. When you activated your secret treaties in the manner you did with the previous lecturing to us, you made this war inevitable. My previous post to you clearly lists out 3 reasons that are unique to Rose and don't include either Oasis or HM.

I've addressed this personally, but the reasons for why Rose was specifically listed in the CB are mainly but not limited to: 1. Rose's entry was the singular event that altered the course of a global. Both Swamp and HM were either hit or M-leveled in. Only Rose entered on a secret treaty. 2. Rose was part of the coalition that hit us in an actual dogpile, 3:1, during KF for having secret treaties. This happened before most Swamp AAs existed and G/G was with us during the time. 3. HM and to a lesser extent Swamp owned up to the secret treaties while y'all had given us a shifting set of reasons to disguise the lack of CB. It's no secret how Abbas works in the shadows, and the lack of transparency was most acute with Rose.