Phoenyx

I can't speak for Rose, but being in Swamp, what I was told was that Swamp was asked to not intervene. Problem was, Swamp had just established this defensive treaty with TCW and Hedge to come to their defense if attacked. Anyway, we can't turn back the clock. The real question is, what should we do now? Alright, fair enough. I hope I'm not the only one really wanting to know who Ronny's source was. Even if he doesn't want to reveal it, if he could just ask his source a few questions like whether he could rule out if his source was Sphinx and if he has a log of their conversation, would be nice...

Alright, I can agree that it's relatively straightforward to go from a defensive network to an offensive one. That being said, if we could just look at the optics here. So clearly, all of these groups felt that Quack was getting too big to deal with alone. We can all argue about whether that's true, but everyone on the non Quack side is essentially agreeing that this was the main reason, if not the sole reason, for setting up this defensive network. So, there are 2 approaches one can take with this information: 1- Quack Attack, which is what happened. 2- Talk to the parties involved instead of attacking. Try to get some verification on Sphynx' claim that an attack was imminent. We all know the results of the first approach. As to the second, we may never know. But I and others certainly have a theory on it- mainly that if an attack happened, it would have been smaller and in that one, you guys would have had the moral high ground. Now, we have another choice- how to proceed. Continue the Quack Attack until Shiho (or was that Adrienne?) gets her record at the very least. Pray that she will achieve it soon. Or start peace talks. At the very least right after Shiho achieves her record. Anyway, whoever it was that said that about a record, how much longer until you would achieve it :-p?

It definitely looks like Sphynx was involved in -something-. But I'm wondering if his idea of what was going to happen and others was different. Because you'll see in that log from an HM leader that all that was mentioned is that a group was being formed to -counter- Quack. That is pretty ambiguous. That could just mean, say, a defensive treaty, which is something that Tyrion fully admitted to doing with Rose and, presumably, Grumpy afterwards. What might have been happening in that log was simply the first step- someone (Sphynx?) putting out feelers to see if a defensive treaty could be established. Perhaps Sphynx dreamed that it would also be an -offensive- treaty, but it seems that Sphynx is the only Swamp member who felt that way so far. Tyrion says he never heard of such a thing, same thing with the high level player I talked to in TFP about it. Clearly, it would be nice to find out the source of this HM leader and see if he could elaborate on his source. I've asked Ronny about this, we'll see if he gets back to me/us on that.

I have to admit, this post made me laugh :-p. I'm just really a pacifist. I like peace. I've found in life, though, one can't always get what one wants. Sometimes you have to fight for it. Also, wars seem to get people talking. And can get people to form close bonds. I wish I could quote a link from one of Frank Herbert's books, but it went something like "Try to surround yourself with people who you'd be happy to die fighting with." Or something like that. You know, people who have your back. So yeah. Anyway, I guess this war is relatively pleasant. Honestly, I have been playing another war game called Call of War and no one there has ever complained about one side being too big- it's more like that's the time the rest just turn in their hats and call it a day. Because the -goal- of pretty much everyone in those games is to be that one that gets too big for anyone else to take on and then slowly gobble everyone else up. Ofcourse, even there, I tend to play things differently. In one of these games, I'm now the biggest Coalition around and instead of just doing my best to now proceed to gobble everyone else up, I'm now trying to get everyone to agree to a peace treaty. It's not working, but what is happening is everyone else is fighting each other and my army just keeps on getting bigger. I've already signalled to some in the game that if anyone calls uncle and says that sure, peace for everyone is fine, I'll side with them and attempt to get the other side to back off. Which really shouldn't be hard the way things are going...

Indeed. I think it's all becoming clear. When Sphinx said that "Swamp" was going to attack, he was just dreaming big. Because so far, the only member of Swamp who had thinks that Swamp was really going to hit Quack was, well, Sphynx. Here's something that Ronny told me an hour ago. I had been thinking of holding on to it to make sure he was ok with me sharing it but at this point, well, I think we may finally be getting to the one and only source of this Swamp "attack" on Quack. It wasn't an aggressive attack treaty, it was only an idea to counter Quack's growth, which is pretty ambiguous. Tyrion had already said he'd worked on a deal with Rose, which may have happened because Grumpy wouldn't join unless Rose was a part of this counter plan... ** This is the direct quote I got from one of my fellow HM leaders when i learned about you guys [he means Swamp, as I'm in it] wanting to hit Quack. Time for a chat my friends. Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea. Side note about 5 mins later I said this. "i will say that i dont trust TCW to not leak this early [1:03 PM] which is my concern about fighting with TCW" I hate being right. ** Gotta say, this sounds about right...

Alright. More and more though, I'm thinking that this may have just been a confusion of the -type- of attack. There are 2 types. Aggressive attacks and -retaliatory- attacks. I'm thinking all of this was that, but Sphinx (who was the leader of TCW at the time? or something else) got it mixed up. Really find it strange that he'd have dates for it though. Anyway, it seems unlikely that we can question Sphinx about it, but Ronny knows who he spoke to in Hedge. That seems to be the only investigative path available that I can see right now. There may be some truth to this. I wouldn't know, having never been in TCW. What I'd really like to know though- when Sphinx wrote his famous quote to Boyce, was he leader of TCW?

About Sphinx, so I think he was the leader of Commonwealth? Anyway, that's not Swamp. And I'm wondering if he got mixed up. I think the key may well lie with whoever Ronny talked to. He says he talked to Hedge, not Swamp. So talking to whoever he talked to in Hedge might be able to clear things up. Anyway, as to having a record to achieve perhaps that's the type of thing that Tyrion was thinking about when he told me that he wasn't seeing the signs that peace talks were ready to start :-p.

Oh come on Partisan, don't be like that :-/. I just ask you to consider, what if Sphinx was wrong? It sure would change things, wouldn't it. I guess we could continue to debate as to whether Coalition against Quack is too big. Or we could debate how we could bring this war to an end?

Nice! I didn't know that bit about you hearing rumours about tS. I hope that Quack learns one thing after all of this- rumours aren't good. Even if the parties behind them are honest, they frequently suffer from the broken telephone effect- someone says something who then whispers it to someone else and by the end of it, the truth can be pretty mangled.

I never said the above :-p. I'm saying that it looks like Sphinx either was mistaken about the nature of the treaty between Swamp/Hedge/Rose/TCW or he outright lied- so what was in fact a defense initiative got twisted into somehow being an offense initiative. I don't know Sphinx well enough to make a judgement call on whether he just misunderstood or was being deceitful, but the more I read, the more I think that one way or another, he got it wrong.

No. I've been doing a lot of digging. What I've found out- Tyrion has publicly stated that he had no clue about this idea to attack. So did a high level official in TFP. Those are the 2 biggest Alliances in Swamp. I just spoke to Grumpy, who said he has clarified that he hadn't actually spoken to anyone in Swamp- he'd spoken to someone in HM. And it -looks- like the whole idea of an "attack" was not actually an attack per se. More like: "If HM/Rose/Swamp/TCW is attacked by Quack, then the others in this group will attack Quack". Tyrion has also clarified that he thought that his treaty with Rose, at least, had been up. Some debate on that, but that is what he said.

A lot said here, but I think on the last point, I need to call you on it. Ronny said that he had been approached by Swamp about hitting Quack, but right after the quote that you guys made an ad about, he said something that I think was even more important: that after he hadn't heard about it for a week, he assumed that that initiative had died. Could it be that Tyrion was instrumental in making it die? As mentioned in the past, the head of Swamp military affairs hadn't even heard about it. Which means this conversation never got to him. And apparently didn't even get to Tyrion. Perhaps it was nixed further down the chain. At this point, who Ronny talked to is looking to be pretty important. Because it looks like this whole plan to attack Quack never even made it to the top Swamp brass. I'll send Ronny a message, see if he would care to elaborate.

I've been talking a lot with Partisan. And one thing comes to mind. Namely, the quote from Grump: ** I get that. And that quote from Grump is good. However, the fact that Swamp would have been divided on it... I mean who knows, if you hadn't attacked, Swamp literally might have cracked in 2 if it came to a vote on this. But because -you- guys attacked first, it spared them any division Because while there are those like TFP who are very defensive in nature I mean because of them, that could have cracked that Coalition in 2. But because you attacked first, you apparently played right into the hands of those who wanted the war from the start. Ah and look what [Ron] said right after the quote in the ad: **After about a week, I assumed the plan died since I didnt hear anything more about it. My guess is that the whole thing died when someone high enough up the food chain nixed it. Apparently above ----- clearance level. He didn't even hear about it. ** Anyway, I finally see who looks to be the main guy in the Swamp leadership- Tyrion. So I'm guessing that he, at least, would have heard of this plan and I'm guessing that he probably played a large role in nixing it.

I've now spoken to Partisan via DMs in Discord. I've revealed a lot. I can't speak that well about past wars- I wasn't involved in them. But when it comes to Swamp in this one, I can speak. Here's a log that will put anything Sphinx has said to shame: ** They were fed nonsense information from somebody with a long history of igniting fires. I run the alliance military and currently Swamp military. There were no plans to attack them. Kind of think I would be in the know about plans like that. ** There you have it. It wasn't just a "top official" in swamp as I've been stating in the past. It was top dog for Swamp military affairs period.

They were at least responding to wars that had already happened. I think that's a lot different than basing a war entirely on a rumour that they were going to get attacked.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said above. I must admit I'm afraid you might in fact bite, lol :-p. But peace is too important to let that get in my way. You may well be right. But I'll push as hard as I can to end it. I still remember all those happy Knight Radiant ads, we need those back ASAP ;-). And let's not forget that ducks actually like swamps of the wooded variety...

Don't know about them Partisan, but I think you and I are getting there. Why can't we work together to try to end this war?

I keep on going over all of this in my head and I keep on thinking that a lot of people here are focusing on the wrong thing. I think the biggest thing may not be whether or not a treaty is paperless, but whether or not an Alliance/other group is trustworthy and/or seen to be a threat to the interests of others. I am beginning to become more confident on my take as to what happened here- A lot of spheres came to think that Quack had become too powerful and too aggressive. So they made a paperless deal that if Quack were to attack another sphere again, they'd retaliate together. On the other hand, it looks like Quack (or a portion thereof) acted on a false rumour that they were going to get attacked. Perhaps Sphinx dreamed that it would happen, but from everything I've seen, it wasn't going to happen. Perhaps near the end he came to the conclusion that -he- was going to get dogpiled and so left the game for a year. But while he may have decided that it was best to leave rather than get attacked for the forseeable future, he apparently succeeded in his goal of getting Quack into a nasty fight. So, to the old question- who benefits from this war? Quack? I think not. Swamp/Rose/Grumpy/etc? Again, not seeing it. It looks like the whole thing started with a rumour. If this is the case, I think the best thing to do would be for Quack to say, sorry, looks like we got fooled by a false rumour, can we end this now? I think that might be more than enough to make it so.

I think you've nailed it. I think at this point, Partisan may be having doubts. It's like a guy playing poker- he was waiting for the flush on the river. Some piece of evidence that is flushed out into the open with the war or something. It didn't happen. So now, I think he may be trying to bluff his way through this. Problem is, people are calling him on the logs and, well, he can't deliver- he didn't get that card he was hoping for. He may figure that the best he can do is draw this out as long as possible and hope everyone else folds before he has to reveal that his hand didn't pan. In the back of his mind, he may be thinking, was this what Sphinx had wanted all along? To get him into a war he couldn't win? Sphinx won't be feeling any pain for a year. I'm thinking the best course of action for him may be to just admit that he acted on dubious information and start ending this war.

I admit that does sound funny :-p. However, the CB for the Swamp war with TCW was a bit more complicated than that. They were responding to wars already fought, not to rumours of one heading their way. Specifically: ** 1) tCW and TEst having nations and micro alliances hit our bloc by proxy wars throughout the NAP. What are you doing in our swamp? 2) Denying ghosting by proxies. This is the part where you run away! 3) Once upon a time, tCW attacking and dragging alliances back into the last war, after initially fighting on their side. Sometimes, things are more than they appear. The Swamp has had war thrust upon us and formally declares military action against The Commonwealth, Terminus Est, and protectorates thereof who engage; and, will bring the conflict to a successful resolution. ** Was any of this happening before you declared war on TcW and Hedge? I will say though, it strikes me as interesting that both Swamp and you guys attacked TcW. Clearly, a fair amount must have happened between these 2 attacks for Swamp to switch from attacking TcW to defending it.

I don't see what why there can't still be paper treaties. It's just that I think that paperless ones are probably here to stay as well. As to speaking freely, almost nothing can stop someone who is determined enough to do that- this is a game after all, no one's actually dying for speaking out, though they may be risking their pixels. Clearly, freedom of speech works better in these games if your nation is small and thus any damage taken not so difficult to repair. I think that people are overlooking something -very- important. Whether treaties are on paper or paperless, they are formed because the people involved believe they will benefit from them. Rightly or wrongly, a lot of spheres believed that Quack was a threat to them and so a group of them decided that the next time Quack attacked one of them, they'd band together. Now some time has passed and I imagine it won't be too long before this global war starts winding down, if that hasn't started already. I think it's now been firmly established that if enough spheres get together, they can take on Quack, thus potentially lessening the old "First, they came for..." fear.

I may be new, but I'm not -that- new, lol :-p. I think I was trying to get people's attention away from the politics and more into the economics. But you're definitely right, wars aren't only fought for profit- and the profit tends to go to those producing the weapons, not those fighting the wars anyway. I definitely think that there is a -lot- of misunderstanding here, but I completely agree, after this war, I sincerely doubt everyone will feel all warm and cuddly with each other, lol :-p. In fact, I strongly suspect that the fact that the 2 groups weren't all warm and cuddly to begin with played a major role in things getting started. As to being around in August, no- I started playing on September 9th. So I asked someone who'd been there. He told me that, yes, Swamp had declared, but based on the DoW, it looks like it was actually a pretty defensive war dec. It's here for those who haven't seen it: Anyway, a little song that I think fits the situation...

I clearly fell into that one :-p. As to the real explanation, though, it seems pretty simple- Rose and others felt that no one Coalition could handle you alone so they agreed to band together in case you attacked one or more of them. Quack attacked and the rest is history. My apologies, Grumpy then :-). Anyway, thanks for clarifying Grumpy's Coalition affiliation.

I was actually only removed from my first Alliance, The Fighting Pacifists, when it became clear that we wouldn't be able to reach an agreement in regards to my communications in these forums. I'd like to point out that there was actually some dissent within TFP as to whether I should be removed, but clearly the side that thought I should be won out. Pretty much as soon as I was removed from TFP, my current Swamp Alliance, FSR, told me I could take refuge with them, at least temporarily, as a player without an Alliance generally doesn't do well. I think that was very nice of them. After that, I was invited to join the Rose Alliance. I suspected that I might have the same issues I had with TFP- it's the strongest Alliance in the game after all, and so it stands to reason that security could be tight. However, I really liked Vexz' style of writing, as well as another Rose member whose name escapes me- he wrote a fictional story as to how Rose entered the fray. I initially thought all his metaphors were based on something real, but he later denied it. Still, some of the things he said do seem to have some basis in things that actually happened and it was nice to have some humour on these issues. I must say that I have never seen another Alliance with such an advanced organizational structure as well, and their memes were hilarious :-p. I was only there briefly, but I'm really going to miss that. Anyway, it soon became apparent that my forum diplomacy was becoming an issue with them. The one thing they mentioned was that they respected Boyce- I had no idea who he was and suspected his credibility. However, it seems a lot of people don't rate Sphinx in nearly the same way. Anyway, with Rose, I was given the choice to do things their way or find another Alliance and so I chose the latter and returned to FSR. It is clearly a small Alliance, but it is still in the Swamp umbrella, which I think should be enough protection for me. Anyway, you still haven't established that you were going to be stricken. All we have is Sphinx saying that there were plans a foot- I can't remember the exact quote, but I remember him mentioning the Swamp. Even if he actually believed what he was saying, it doesn't make it true. Did he even talk to someone in the Swamp himself or was he relying on the words of someone who claimed to have talked to someone in the Swamp? It seems that the thing that is most brought up is an ad of Grumpy Old Bastards' leader Ronny saying that they had said that they wouldn't even consider hitting Quack if Rose didn't hit. I think that GOB is in the Swamp, so perhaps this is the source of it all? But the thing is, that quote doesn't explain whether he meant it defensively or offensively. Even if he meant it offensively, I know that Ronny has since said that while there was some talk about hitting Quack, it never went anywhere. So perhaps this is the source of Sphinx' notion that the Swamp was going to attack? An idea that never went anywhere? I really wish that the person I talked to in the Swamp would be ok with me revealing who they are. Because they made it clear that not only had they not even -heard- of this notion of attacking Quack, but that if they had, they would have opposed it with every fiber of their being, because they firmly believed that it would have been a bloodbath for their Alliance.