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Hi guys, We've been discussing changes to the war system in the dev team, and I wanted to bring forth this proposal for some public feedback. This is my idea, and the crux of it is essentially removing the tie between relief (beige or any replacement) with losing wars. That fixes a lot of the problems with the old system (wanting to lose wars, not wanting to win wars, incentives to attack allies to lose, etc.) I've recorded a short video discussing it a bit here: https://www.loom.com/share/2fca8eee1ce74d68a993601720b5e895 And there's also a document I wrote going into the proposal in more depth here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i-_bMhwcOhEF_gJfK7MBSFA0t5S9e-YbE7iiyoHmEwg/edit?usp=sharing Right now I am looking for feedback. Eventually we are going to take (at least) one of these proposals and throw it on the test server for a short tournament to test it out in practice.

Agon? More like Bgon.

Why haven't you just removed the like, two, three unpopular bits of what's on the test server and released it? It's way simpler, is already coded, is reflective of the most popular community suggestions on the topic for years back, and it fixes the problem you're describing as setting out to solve. It's not perfect, we get that, but all anyone was looking for was to stop permanent hold downs like last war, or to avoid the work of moderating slot filling or getting someone to do so. What is already tested achieves that, the feedback on it is already there with the requested tweaks, and barring the wider play testing it'd get on the live server, is ready to go. While it's better than the nothing we have now, I'm with Benfro on other immediately obvious problems that make it worse than what's already available.

Summary of the changes made to the formula as of 5/14: Score per City increased from 50 -> 100 (after City #1) Added a base +10 Score to everyone Changing military unit score to be closer to actual value: Soldiers: 0.0005 -> 0.0004 each Tanks: 0.05 -> 0.009 each Aircraft: 0.5 -> 0.2 each Ships: 2 -> 0.75 each Score from Missiles and Nuclear Weapons are capped at 50 each (the 51st Missile or Nuclear Weapon will not add to your nation score.) Suggested changes [bolded]: Score per City increased from 50 -> 75 (after City #1) Added a base +10 Score to everyone Changing military unit score to be closer to actual value: Soldiers: 0.0005 -> 0.0004 each Tanks: 0.05 -> 0.025 each Aircraft: 0.5 -> 0.3 each Ships: 2 -> 1 each Score from Missiles and Nuclear Weapons are capped at 50 each (the 51st Missile or Nuclear Weapon will not add to your nation score.) Why: The shortest version possible is that the score changes hardlocked people into tiers, it "tightened" war ranges. My contention is that it over-tightened based on city count instead of standing military. Your city count is not a good mechanism to be the main determinant of war range because it does represent your current military capability. The changes effectively have created an environment for wars where, even if you are zeroed, you can't escape people with a similar city count & max military. This is obviously very sub-optimal gameplay and probably unintended. I think the revised numbers will still keep war ranges tightened but not to the extreme we now see. tl;dr - Arrgh has been the guinea pig for these score changes for about a month now. Even while zeroed out we get slotted by people with max military: 2k planes, 20k tanks, 200 boats, max soldiers. That's impossible to get out from under, even while we're running extremely low infra builds. In a large-scale conflict, y'all are going to be in for a world of hurt if these score changes stay the way they are.

Yet, here you are. 6 posts in 24 post thread. I understand you're very passionate about sucking your allies' dick, but at the end of the day, you're still sucking dick. A little bit of class and strong silence goes a long way.

How come you completely ignored all dev team proposals and went straight to yours, with the most supported solution from the dev team as a one sentence afterthought?

Irrelevant, you narrow minded buffoon. You fail to account for that only being possible when his nation is literally incapable of doing anything. Being c14 updeccing on 22 doesn't matter if they have literally nothing. And if the guy kept trying to fight back his score would be high enough to be in range of people his size with max military. I'm city 25, if I get zeroed and lose infra down to 800, I'm still in range of c20-22s with max military. Sure, I'm also in range of like c15s (with max military again mind you) but that doesn't particularly matter because I'll always be slotted by max military 20 something's. The point is that it's impossible to resist. The problem people had with downdeclaring was IQ having max plane c20s get in range of c12s. It wasn't double buys from the upper tier who had no other manner to resist. Even then, because c20s could be in range to hit 12s, it meant that if those.upper tier did anything they'd still get hit by their size. Just not with max military is all. You have literally zero ground to stand on mate. Everyone else has realized all this already, you're the last one late to the party.

Much love Thalmor, but do you really get to talk about being classy, when in the sentence above you mention sucking dick, not once but twice? Love ya ally!

Finally I get raid Agon without seeing that all the slots are filled for some reason.

Wild concept to just tweak the existing system rather than reinvent the wheel

Thanks for continuing to sleuth this out, and spending time on it before it becomes crucial for gameplay. Our concern is that this will actually encourage the slowplay of wars, to a point that a defensive nation has no way to escape. You are essentially discouraging nuclear and missile attacks, and incentivizing attackers that have huge advantages to minimize their damage. It would more or less allow perma-blockades anyway as long as an attacker didn't hurt too much. What you will see is use of pirate or tactician mode with 1 ship or minimal ground forces. It will also damage the coordination mechanics that have helped to make communities so important and such a strengthening part of the game. I would encourage the team to continue reviewing how to incentivize how an attacker can still be rewarded, while allowing a defender to maintain dignity and fighting ability. This proposed change feels even stronger weighted to a slow attacking style, when this is what has caused challenges with the previous beige system.

goons

Here, have a snickers. You get a little cranky when you’re hungry. Solid suggestion Roberts.

Dear Orbis, I regret to inform you that Terminus Est has technically ended hostility with Agon by stating "We are too small to actually hit." Also, Terminus Est has not declared any new wars in the last 48 hours. (Technically the new wars were declared after Boyce said, the RoH doesn't matter) Additionally, when asked if Agon can continue to raid Terminus Est, Boyce states counters are fair but the overall war "doesn't matter at this point". Thank you for trying to attack us Terminus Est. Maybe we will meet again on the same side but right now hostilities between both parties have ended. Sincerely, Deulos

To parrot what I said in the dev team channel: Although the premise behind the idea is enticing, it has several flaws within it. For one, infrastructure is not a valid indicator of whether or not someone is losing a war, people already aim to minimise infra damage to prevent the enemies score from dropping too low. Furthermore, as the war continues, infrastructure levels tend to drop and sit somewhere <1000 levels, especially for the losing side. Unit damages is an ideal way of judging damages taken, but at the same time is difficult to judge. If it was feasible without the several glaring gaps in the system I would really like it. Is it a percentage based system on how much you initially had at the start of the war? Or based on flat damages dealt? The former means anyone can simply decom all their units, declare a bunch of wars and farm free beige. The latter means that you can be infinitely pinned once you are zeroed. I really can't see any meaningful methods of fleshing this system out so that it could work. All of this was brought up in the discord by several other people besides me. This idea wasn't even polished out by us in a doc like so many of the others were, it was mostly touched upon in a few messages on discord before we realised the troubles with implementing a system like this. I genuinely appreciate your efforts to get extra feedback by posting this in a more public format and I know much of what is said on discord tends to get drowned out unless it's written on a doc so it is difficult to go back and refer on the feedback given in the moment, but why not also bring out the several other proposals listed out by us? I don't see much need in limiting discussion to what is arguably the most half-baked idea we had, especially when there were alternatives that did much of the same thing (disassociating beige with losing wars) much more effectively.

This

Terms weren't presented. Then why are they doing it.

So why am I being flattered by having 100+ nations recognize hostilities with me. And on the forums too...

Again - Wow. You really do have a difficult time grasping meanings, don't you?

LukeTP: Agon is too smol to matter. Also LukeTP: Yes, declare war on Agon with 100+ nations they are a global threat.

@Changeupthat problem has been addressed in the feedback by making all wars end in beige for the loser whether they're the aggressor or defender and whether it expires or concludes on someone hitting 0 res.

This system greatly punishes the defeated sides in large scale wars, as well as lower infra raiders. If you make a system of relief based up how much you've lost, there comes a point where you have little of value to lose. Often nations maintain a 700-1000 infra avg level due to the inexpensive costs of infra at that level but the ability to field near max military, or at least max mil improvements at those levels. If they're trying to fight back they'll be maintaining infra around this point even as it gets blown up, in some cases they might end a war with more than they've lost because they're trying to mount a double buy. With this system a nation is better off not logging in until they end of the war once they've been beaten down because they'll not likely see enough a break to ever meaningfully come back. This system is also flawed in staggered wars, if you someone is about to beat you, then two more wars are declared nations can just sit on you during your beige time and only blow up what you build. So you've effectively broken even and get no reprieve what so ever and just repeat this process eternally.

You mean the ones you invariably go radio silent on because you can't back up your stance? Given my grasp on the whole situation (I've been inquired a fair bit over the past week for stuff pertaining to this), it honestly sounds like you're just bypassing the disagreements by the dev team and coming here to try to gain some traction for stuff that only you and Pre think that is good.

This thread basically already proposed the idea of a beige bank. Others have already given solid feedback in that thread and in this thread. I personally do not think this beige bank idea will pan out the way you think it will. I also don't think unlinking beige from losing wars is a good idea. Please please please just move the test server changes on to live while removing the one or two pieces that turned out poorly. There was a whole feedback thread about those beige changes as well. Please please please fix the broken score change. I think the community at-large has either become overtly frustrated by these threads, or has begun overtly avoiding this section of the forums altogether because we've been at such a rapid-fire pace lately with several large suggestions and a few huge actual changes to multiple different systems - many of those changes needing to be retuned because they proved too powerful in one direction or the other. I don't want important pieces to get left behind because certain members of the dev team or whoever is excited to move on to the next "project."

Maybe I missed something but how does this prevent people from declaring war then activating their beige preventing counters from being sent?

Finally you paid some attention to what the community has to say

Why do you pretend to care about feedback, when you just ignore that which you don't like, public or otherwise?

It's like no one cared...

It's been fixed locally - I'll see about getting it pushed to the live server today.

I've wanted the name "Turkmenistan" since I've started the game - turns out there's an inactive with the name- I've sent a message offering in game money and resources in exchange for the player changing their name; however i haven't got any response... Is there a way to somehow get the inactive to change their name?? Or a way to at least Ping the person running the account so I can negotiate a deal?? Thanks -Signed DOOM My nation: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=221176 Nation in question: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=212561

We won a long time ago. We were never interested in making the AA disband. Look at it as us saving the TCM membership from their "international king" as he calls himself. No it isn't. We won. You lost. Horribly. Excruciatingly.

Congrats on the win, Swamp!

Don’t get it twisted, almost no one is going to see this as a white peace. Most will see it as swamp letting you guys have peace because you “the leader” refused basic demands and we’re willing to keep your micro at war for your own ego. Essentially yet again destroying ANOTHER one of your alliances basically swamp got bored and let you go

But you already knew this... you can't use it as an excuse

lets be fair TCM lost but they went full scorched earth on The Swamp so technically Nokia did do as much damage as they could and The Swamp won a long time ago the other side just wont admit it.

Are you saying that you let your members evacuate for the duration in the war and are now letting them return now that it's safe?

@Lord Tyrion @Alexio15 Congrats on your successful campaign to bring clean green energy to the masses, and moratorium on further coal mine expansion. Wish you a quick rebuild current and former TCM members.

wait... the coal mines has 6 members, of which you arent one of... So I would hope a bloc of what 500-600 members could beat a 6 man alliance.

Just to drop an example here: 56.6% of this nation's score comes from 22 cities. 2100 score. That's no military, no infra, no projects. So with no infra, no military, no projects, Example1 would be perfectly in range of this example2 nation. So example nation 1 would never escape being dog-piled no matter what he did. It is an actual disadvantage to have a higher-than-average city count because of the score changes.

As I was in one of the many alliance servers, I found myself confronted with this message I thought. Oh god? How can people reject such a great idea? I decided to join for myself to see the beauty. As soon as joining I noticed some small spelling mistakes but I imagined that such a great Union could not be dismantled by just a small error! We immediately started to do big boy business and help each other in major conflicts. I was so excited to see that one of the most important members of the union needed help and was so sad that some guy attacked him for no rson Members of the lame stream media started complaining of the genius plans we were concucting and started spouting fake news, ruining the ideology. Luckily our inspirational leader chose to continue with his project and explaining to us the complcated tactics that we could not understand. It was really a merging of knowledge and intelligence! Such nobilty, such passion. I was so surprised! Nokia Rokia and WarNet classified as visitors? There must be a mistake! There is no way that such a great and experienced group could do such mistakes. And where was my role? It was obvious that one of the secretaries had done some mistakes so I decided to report the issue to our superior leaders so that they could help us I complained, of course, so that the incompetent secretaries could be fired and would be stopped from ruining this. I was surprised! Que s'est-il passé? How was this possible? I assumed that Mr. Cat had been hacked by one of the incompetent secretaries and decided I wanted to help him! = I mobilitized to stop the hack but then noticed that the serious negotiations had once again started! Amazing! Merging, seems like a very political word so I like that I guess. What was going on? Such intricated politics and diplomacy! I was fascinated by how well it was going! Our leader is taking decisions and I can't wait to see the outcome! I'll keep you updated on this amazing union! What a logo too

You guys are awesome- here’s to a 1000 more

Epic bump. Also, get a new job Queefwe.

You put more effort into your OWF posts than I do for school essays.

Who else is 99% sure this guy is trolling?

Most of the time the only people who care about that distinction are fascists and Neo-Nazis. To the rest of us, they're all just trash.

Only way I like my nazi alliances. Gone.

Afrika Korps. Also please don’t bother to apply to TKR in the future.

LMAO, I got a game strike because Sheepy accidentally striked me instead of the person I reported for nazism

The Outlaw Fox Returns to Become King From the ashes of Nova’s Cheat day many of former members of Nova Riata sailed off to new lands, scattering themselves across Orbis. Some formed their own fragments and remained independent, others find new homes in the many alliances of Orbis, either fighting in the wars that plague the land, or prospering under peace and neutrality. Some, unfortunately, are gone forever from the world of Orbis, to never return . Nova Riata became effectively a cautionary tale in the hearts of all the former sea barons. Today I stand before you all pledging to build a new Kingdom, remembering the community Nova created and vowing to bring that back to Orbis. Many things will be different though, chief among these are that we’ve learned from our past mistakes, we learned to question things that are too good to be true, we will not be bringing back the lies and exploits of my predecessor. There’s a true value of building through hard work and skill rather than through cheap exploits. So, from the ashes of Nova, a small group of sneaky foxes, Pokemon training beans, bovine slavs, angry red bearded men, and bagel boilers all unite in a new land to call their home, determined to rebuild all that was taken away Ríocht Sasana Rises Our Discord (Click Here) MDoAP with Manhattan Project Tl;Dr? Learn to read you pleb