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>Ming Empire They better build that wall fast.

Just for clarification, "trust that we will handle it" wasn't the offer, nor did we ever say that all cases were legit. The offer was that we'd compile our own lists, kick actual war dodgers from the alliance, and let you have your way with them. Having kept track of my own actual war dodgers this war, I know my list is longer than the one your side made, it just doesn't include the two that you did and it doesn't because I don't generally allow war dodgers to stick around long enough to reach that size. This original offer was made when we were under the impression war dodging culture as a whole was what you were after, which doesn't appear to be the case. Hear me out with the rest of this post before you go getting mad at me because I'll explain what I mean more. Also, just for transparency, here's the original counter offer: Coalition A doesn't have access to the same information regarding member reasoning for VMs that we do and so lacks the proper information necessary in order to determine if a member is a legitimate war dodger or not We all have our own methods internally for handling VM/war dodgers and we've been monitoring our own members throughout this conflict. We're willing to compile our own lists of actual war dodgers as determined by us and remove them from the AA After members are removed from the AA, you'll face no intervention on their behalf by their original alliance during the time of this war should you decide to go after them And if you wanted to base war dodging cases off more than just reasoning, we could have discussed that but instead it was outright rejected. A member's reason for entering just the first indicator I personally use when determining if someone's war dodging and the one that hit the hardest for us, knowing what we do about some of our members' reasons for not participating for the entirety of this war (all of our nations have fought to some degree). The two other major ones are my general knowledge of that person and how much effort they put in when they fight historically, which can be shown fairly easily through looking at their nation page and would be an easier, more objective look at it to add in, if that's what you wanted. When I refer to no research being done, I'm referring to historical evidence here. The research done was primarily just people that went into VM during this war and logged on once during this time. There's nothing there that addresses it being a pattern of behavior, which is what changes it from just VM users to war dodgers. I'm not suggesting anything totally insane, you don't even need to be extensive and break out old war stats or anything. Like I said before, it just takes a bit more of a look at their nation page. The unit kills for their age is a good start, for example. There's also already been an established method for identifying them through a prior war, which was even lead by a guy on your side. His criteria, when applied to our alliance, does help you identify who is and isn't a war dodger when applied to our VM users. Yes and no. This is where our confusion lied with making a successive counter term, because, while your term may be technically correct, war dodgers already has a definition within this community and it doesn't signify someone that went into VM one time in one war. I do agree with you that had they said VM users from the start we'd probably have had less of an issue because VM users and war dodgers are different things. People on your side are free to continue yelling at me and claim I'm "elawyering" and it's "semantics" but, as has been shown throughout this thread and throughout literally the last few years on Orbis, there is a difference. Your side's term doesn't address war dodgers. It addresses folks in VM and damage parity/rebuild concerns. And that's fine, if that's what you're after. Let me reiterate something I said in my first post on this thread though. This term itself isn't the reason we stopped talks. The primary reason we stopped is because we felt the other side wasn't willing to negotiate in good faith. You can say "we're the winning side and we don't have to negotiate it good faith" and sure, you don't have to, it's your decision. But that doesn't mean that we're obligated to roll over and just accept that either. So we walked.

can you please shut up? your posts are making it difficult to read the good stuff

Sorry Apeman, @Fraggle already got that assignment.

You had a few drinks, didn't you?

Sign here if regardless of war term acceptance, you are willing to form a rogue squad and nuke/blow up the VM nations post-peace. Stay milled my friends. Signed

Can i raid your inactives?

Good luck. The NationStates flag effect feels so nostalgic.

Let me explain something to you, since you seem ignorant of it. This isn’t a negotiation. These are terms of your surrender. We aren’t a union and a company negotiating who gets what and such. You’re a defeated group seeking peace. Peace which is early in regards to the victors sides desires. You take what we give you, and sure we are willing to work on some things, but if we plant our foot down on something you have three choices, accept it, wait til we stop caring about it or accomplish it ourselves. Saying we aren’t negotiating in good faith is asinine. And you’re beyond imcompetent if you actually believe that narrative is going to get you anywhere. You left negotiations because you let your pride get in the way. There exists this fallacy in PnW where if the losing side gurrillas long enough the damages even out and it behooves the winning side to push for white peace. If the alliance swinging from below is motivated, and coordinated then sure it can make it tedious for the winning side. However even if the winning side is burdened some they’re still growing and gaining money and resources. The losing side is not. Take that hat into account when looking at TKR and tCW. You’re soft. Your members are soft. They don’t have the stomach for that because they’re too used to easy wins and dogpiles. Not to mention your entire sphere is being held down. You have NO allies not being covered (minus Guardians TFP). Meanwhile you’re enemies grow at a slower rate, however it’s a much faster one than you. And your other enemies who you recently rolled KT and friends grow faster than both parties. That’s you’re true problem. You have no friends not being decimated. All you have are enemies. This is your grave you've dug. Submit.

Ayy.... these guys are kind of cool tho lol

Congrats on completely derailing the entire conversation @Inst I don't even think @MinesomeMCcould be this effective

Best of luck. Could have looked for a better protector at least.

Technically, the 69DW did last 69 days. That is if you are going by in game day changes, as many do.

Considering they are protected by Argos, u surely can raid their actives. Though on a different note, this alliance will go far. Just look at their protector.

Hi, I am Phillip the second/current Prime Minister of HUF. I make this announcement today to confirm the declaration of war by the Institution on an ally MEU (Military and Economic Union) so HUF has ended its history of neutrality, It’s streak of peace since its formation this is our first official war (excluding raids). For us this is very much a war on democracy and its sovereignty, and a war that must prove in hardships that we can function as competently as the imperialists that threaten our way of life. We may not have a perfected system and to say it’s superior is even a matter of perspective but let it be said that we will enforce the virtues HUF was founded upon even when hardship ensues. We will muster our might to fight for the egalitarian treatment of all alliances when we are able. We won’t sucumb to the war culture with disregard to our cause, our foundation. Every alliance is founded upon certain morals, goals and innovation to be different and we hold true to that while we see everybody else tempted to use the war tactics they see working in their favor at others expense. Let it be known we are not the provoker and these unfortunate circumstances haven’t been to our favor but the HUF culture won’t submit to any higher identity or agenda. We ask not for help for If we get foreign aid then Camelot will assist the Institution but I am raising awareness of our existence for anybody looking for an alliance they are willing to fight for, and in turn we will fight for you. This is the most public announcement we have made because equivocally Its the most crucial. We will continue fighting and doubt this is the last Orbis will hear from us. We thank our friends and allies for everything they have done in our history and will ensure through victory here and only then that we can continue to co-exist with you, to serve you all the people of Orbis. We will prevail to despotism and usher in hopefully a next generation with inevitable change. Any resource assistance is appreciated to either HUF or MEU. If the imperialists win then a MEU must cease to membership under them and potentially HUF must also but we will have fallen or won fighting for the very beliefs we have always held and If we are to win our only conditions are that they pay war reparations and can’t declare on us again for the time period we determine at the treaty negotiations, we intend to hold no power or shame over their heads when that’s the very thing our opponent declared to do. For now HUF must focus on this threat and If my people believe I have surrendered the moral high ground then they may look forward to the February election in which I’d seek re-election. Sorry to write such a long statement but I value honesty with the public and that they deserve accurate updates on our affairs.

If you consider our practice of not taking a step back for any of our terms (their context) a sign of "bad faith", there is not much we can do about it. However, if there is some other event that alienated you and made you think we were running the peace negotiations in bad faith, let us know and we can work on that. From my point of view, a sign of bad faith would be trying to hide things from you, being impolite, trying to trick you, not giving you alternatives, etc. I think that we did our best to provide all the information you wanted. Also, from the very beginning, the terms were even signed by the alliances that suggested them, while we could have avoided that in order to keep things foggy and to try and avoid future retribution. Morever, we did change things according to your feedback, like the wording of clauses that didn't sound right to you. Terms like the war-VMers one even have two alternatives (us attacking the nations or them selling their infra on their own) in order to make things easier for you and let nations avoid a raid that would also make them lose resources, military and growth time. In any case, your remark gave me an idea. We may try to come up with a nice Christmas present/event. No promises though. ?

I thought we had evolved past blocks of texts...

Ah Imperialism. Love it, got to love it. Sorta like the teenage phase of a nation/alliance. ah but we did offer ya a peacefully way out, just remember that

Thx Epi and El Barto (Assuming Barto isn’t being sarcastic). I knew most ppl wouldn’t care as we are still considered micro and nobody cares until you have power but I figured trying to communicate with the people didn’t hurt.

tl;dr?

Part of the problem is that by the time you have a force ready to counter, the opfor has already defeated / neutralized the victim. But the other part of t he problem is that if you add resistance-boosting mechanisms, it becomes impossible to beige race when you're losing.

I feel like not much will change with this, except the winning nation will have to have 1-2 more immense triumphs. IMO the actual issue causing wars to end quickly tend to be because of double buying by the attackers, strategic planning with the other people in the defender's slots, and inactivity of the defender. All 3 of these are user-generated and are just smart ways of playing the game. Adding resistance during a war wouldn't really change anything except make the attackers attack 1-2 more times(look at fortify and how useless that was). I will say this if we were to removal double buying capabilities and then add this mechanic that could be interesting. There would still be some questions that would need to be answered, but that seems more of a reasonable answer to make wars more competitive than just forcing the losing nation to take more hits.

Me personally on the Grumpy term... the point I'm hoping gets hit with that one is "if you are going to unflinchingly tie enough upper tier alliances together that you are effectively making an upper tier version of IQ, you should at least take ownership of the fact that you've done that rather than purport to be paperless." It hasn't really been debated as far as I know, but that's where I'm coming from, at least.

I see it as contradictory too. Even so, it'd help clarify the stances of the three different sides in the coalition as well, so TKR and their allies will know what to expect come the future after the war and how to adjust their FA game. I may discuss this verbally on my show, but there is (at least to me) a difference in how to approach alliances that are set forth in doing either "blanket damage" or "punishing legit dodgers". For example: If NPO, BK, TEst are pushing for blanket damage and Rose, Syndicate, CoS are pushing for punishing legit dodgers - then it would allow TKR and Friends to know exactly how to approach any of those alliances in the future if a conflict comes around and they're on the victorious side against them (Or what to expect if they're working alongside with them). It would also let those sitting on the sidelines watching the expectations from these alliances as well. Personally speaking, I'm awfully curious about how this will be settled.

Arrgh! Following the TKR manual, since you are pirates, have no military and no alliances to protect you, we will just use you for training our new members and perma-war you, even if you don't attack us at all. Edit 1: It's amazing how you forgot to add in the flag Tesla, an alliance with which you have an MDP, but you didn't forget to add GOB, an alliance which is "paperless". Edit 2: I am glad you get to experience the pirate life. It's the best kind of play-style in the game (for an individual).

Take all the time you guys need. These stats are exemplary and a massive help to see how each of us are going, looking forward to seeing the improvements.

Politics and War Holiday Happiness: Charity in the Nuclear Winter Hello all. I'm 5 days late on this post but oh well. As a global war rages on and countless civilians and military personnel are experiencing untold suffering on Orbis in roleplay, let's take a minute to remember that suffering exists in the real world as well. The holidays can be a time when people are tight on cash, but it's also a time for giving. A time when people look to give happiness and hope to others. Typically every year around the beginning of December I like to attempt to organize some sort of fundraising drive so that our small community here can make some positive impact on the world. As it turns out, it's slightly harder than you'd expect to find a reputable charity with an accessible website that you can utilize to do a group fundraiser that would appeal to the widest possible audience. So while it may not be the most "holiday" themed, I hope you will still look upon this as an opportunity to come together and make a difference as a community. https://my.charitywater.org/bartholomew-roberts/pnw-holiday-happiness Charity Water is a charity that the nationsim community has utilized before in the past, they are reputable and no one (including myself) except the intended recipients sees a penny of the funds raised by our campaign. I get nothing from this, you get nothing from this, this is an opportunity to potentially change our world for the better as quickly as you would make a purchase on Amazon. There is no minimum or maximum donation limit, but I set our goal for $5000 just in case we're really feeling spirited. The charity itself is all about offering access to clean water across the globe in an international effort to provide the most basic of necessities to people who need it. https://my.charitywater.org/global-water-crisis This link provides more information, and obviously there's more info to be found on their website. Paypal is accepted, which is my preferred method of donation due to privacy and security - but they also accept cards. Thank you for your time, your care, and your (hopeful) donation. quick edit: I would ask that if you cannot or will not donate, that you share this on your alliance forums or discord servers.

Damn it, no one in your alliance is in my range!

Welcome to the Micro Sphere, now let the attacks commence!

True Can confirm Btw, did you know If you enter a war on behalf of your protectorates, you cannot be helped by others. Its called *non-chaining*

FYI, 68 day war did not last for 68 days But 69 day war did last for 69 days. Also NUKES TO WAR DODGERS AND 4K INFRA WHALES!!!!

Curses upon curses damnu

This is Shifty periodically checking in with the folks and dropping the occasional rumor RL is one hell of a hinderance, but Shifty will overcome. He'll never quit or surrender the good fight against the globalists On today's news: Could tS be plotting to counter NPO? OwO, but what's this? As one would expect, with TKR pronounced dead as a door knob, it's only logical that the remaining 2 spheres would want to kill each other. But who will turn on who first? Well as of late, BC and tS had been entertaining an idea that Roquentin and NPO, not BK, would be the first party in IQ to turn on tS. Could this be the post-war Cold War? Also Ashenguard renamed to Ming Empire. Tbqh, the name was awful and had nothing to do with Prussia or their bizarre flag. At least now they have a theme.

Hi there, I am Ocelot, the newest addition to Orbis. I live in Greece and study to be an accountant. I am a member of the NPO. Feel free to give me cookies, catnip, electronic music and anything you need to organize into excel spreadsheets. How are you today?

"I used to have this notion when I was a kid that the minute you said anything, it was no longer true." Diane Arbus, preface to Diane Arbus: An Aperture Monograph.

This thread is more amusing if you pretend all the parties involved are rational actors.

I'm not sure it was officially HUF but I had a few ongoing fights with Ry and Tallplace back in the days when I'd just started PnW and needed raid targets. May have gone back before Ry officially founded HUF and was with his last micro, glad to see he isn't a part anymore though. Guy used to run his mouth off with no real ability to follow up

Good luck to you all. Fight for what you believe in. Regardless of your size.

I appreciate the response, but here's where I'm coming from. TCW was on your side regardless. I know you also tried to make agreements with tC. So. Putting intentionality aside in why you got the people you did, it's still clear that you would have "your side" be at least Guardian, TKR, tC, Grumpy, and, via TKR, TCW/Tesla. That is a virtually unassailable, IQ-like upper tier grouping. To counter it, we had to get the jump on you, use virtually every available alliance remaining in the political sphere, AND still initially lose. Some elements of IQ claimed they didn't want to result in such a game-stifling grouping when they made IQ, but that didn't stop them from doing it.

@Ocelot καλωσήρθες. Ι hope you get to enjoy the game. Greetings from Athens!

are you sure youre old enough to sign up for pnw

Alliances that are trully paperless, have no treaties whatsoever. They can have friends and they can collaborate with others (see CoS, TEst, SK and Arrgh in this war). However, they can as well attack the next day the very same alliances they supported the day before. Paperless are fluid. Then, you have "paperless ties" (we even get the oxymoron term "paperless treaties") - ties that were never made formal in any way: either in an attempt to hide them or due to them just appearing and not being something formal or set on stone For the first case: Since Sparta hit GOB, it has been proven again and again (and admitted by their members) that GOB and Guardian are allies. Indicatively, at this war, you can see that Guardian didn't get assistance from two of its MDPs, but did get assistance from GOB, with which, supposedly, it has no official ties. That's a secret paperless treaty. For the second case: Paperless ties may just appear due to the nature of two alliances, their history, circumstances, etc. For example, Arrgh and Typhon have/had a similar play-style and it makes no sense raiding raiders. Naturally, the two alliances didn't hit each other and cooperated indirectly. That's a natural, unofficial tie created by the environment. Regarding the participation of the trully paperless to this war, this is no treaty, as there is just a temporary agreement set for this specific war. For example, CoS attacked SK a few months before this war, but SK assisted CoS to its front (against Tesla) in this current war.

Hello this is the former EMC, we just had a rebrand and now we are a pirate coalition, you can notice it by the fact that we are always at war and we target big inactive nations without having an army and with low infra Since we are now pirates I'm here to pretend, even from alliances we are not at war with, a white peace and unlimited NAP where you can attack us only if we attack first #givepiracyachance

Buy me city 24 and I'll buy up nukes and nuke 'em post-war. Shifty is a butcher for sale. Also my boi Leo/Thanos dropping truth bombs like a B-52 over 'Nam. The losers are losers and have zero say. Drive the knife in deep and twist. TKR sphere deserves this. "Omg but you're making this CN 2.0." "Omg, you're making bad enemies and bad blood." TKR needed their ego and teeth kicked in. Guardian is smug, but they ain't that bad. (Exception) TCW, who cares about pissing them off? They can't fight their way out of a paper bag. GoB had it coming. Tesla is basically dead and proved to be a useless offshoot of The Chola/Zodiac. Statesmen, Nova Riata, Silenzio, and any other micros are irrelevant and should just be tossed to the raiders anyway. Idk who the frick came up with this idea that this game doesn't need drama. Your stagnant shit filled minds keep coming up with ideas on how to kill any fun and conflict. Y'all rather have passive aggressive, "listen here pal" wars that end in nothing instead of salt filled, humiliating, and punishing defeats. The weak should fear the strong. Shifty says what's on everyone's mind, but they're too afraid to say it because they're playing model UN. Prove me wrong Protip: You can't.

The war will continue until TheNG recognizes that I am the New and Improved Pigeon

Honestly, I have a deep respect for anyone at the top of the "units lost" leaderboards. Being there proves that for all the war you're doing, you mean it; you're not plugging away at zeroed or inactive nations, but rather fighting people with military that are using it. After all what's better: getting dogpiled and rolling over, or getting dogpiled and fighting like hell anyway?

Sweet i know whom to hit to rack up some beige days then. Thanks chums.

For the people who skimmed the OP, go back and read it. Especially if you are currently "government". It's 100% true based on my many years of playing games like this.